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Old 01-10-2007, 08:02 PM
 
504 posts, read 1,622,353 times
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All Liberals should be paranoid, just listen to talk show hosts, Limbaugh,Hannity, Beck and a few others, that blame us for all the world problems , just like the Jews in Germany, that's why I say I will put my big Yellow L on my shirt proudly.
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Old 01-11-2007, 02:04 AM
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
28,324 posts, read 43,680,182 times
Reputation: 18873
Quote:
Originally Posted by chaz longue View Post
I find the dichotomy ("Liberal" vs "Conservative") pretty inadequate for discussions of this kind.

A simple left / right continuum along a single axis tells you very very little.


The Nolan Chart gives a much more complete way of looking at this sort of thing:

Here's "The World's Smallest Political Quiz" to illustrate my point:

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html
According to that, I'm a left-leaning Libertarian. I've actually discovered I'm closer to Libertarian now, even though I used to be a Green Party member... I've just become more disillusioned with the government, I guess. Bill Maher for president!! LOL
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Old 01-11-2007, 02:20 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
5,080 posts, read 7,712,331 times
Reputation: 1105
CENTRIST

CENTRISTS espouse a "middle ground" regarding government

control of the economy and personal behavior. Depending on

the issue, they sometimes favor government intervention

and sometimes support individual freedom of choice.

Centrists pride themselves on keeping an open mind,

tend to oppose "political extremes," and emphasize what

they describe as "practical" solutions to problems.

Now thats a Quiz I liked.
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Old 01-11-2007, 02:44 AM
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
28,324 posts, read 43,680,182 times
Reputation: 18873
Now to respond to all the ACLU hubbub... like I said before, I'm not exactly a card-carrying member, and do agree they go overboard sometimes. And of course I don't support every cause they defend, but that was one of my points - that the ACLU defends anyone who requires help, thus showing they aren't a biased group. Civil liberties is a huge issue to me, and they are one of the few organizations that stands for this... if someone can enlighten me on better groups, I'd love to hear about them! I do know of some others (mostly related to "intellectual freedom" & security), but obviously ACLU is the most well-known.

Btw, this might tick off some of you, but my sister worked for the ACLU as an intern in college... and they inspired her to become a lawyer, which she does with city government now. I'd have to probe her for more info, but I remember her doing a few very interesting projects there. Nobody has a clue as to everything they accomplish, especially on the local levels... it's only the notable and/or controversial stuff that makes headlines. As for the cases they've done recently, here's a whole bunch to read through - while you might not agree with every issue presented, there are many "noble" & logical causes:

http://www.aclu-wa.org/issues/index.cfm?issue_id=2
http://www.aclu-wa.org/issues/index.cfm?issue_id=4
http://www.aclu-wa.org/issues/index.cfm?issue_id=6
http://www.aclu-wa.org/issues/index.cfm?issue_id=51
http://www.aclunc.org/cases/index.shtml
http://www.aclunc.org/cases/landmark_cases/index.shtml
http://www.aclunc.org/cases/cases_to_watch/index.shtml
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Old 01-11-2007, 04:39 AM
 
Location: on an island
13,375 posts, read 40,258,650 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dedalus View Post
I decided that I did not care for the ACLU ever since they came out in favor of "bubble laws." A "bubble law" prohibits anti-abortion protesters from doing their bloody fetus picture waving thing within a certain distance of an abortion clinic.

I strongly favor legal abortion. And, I think it's in poor taste for those protestors to do what they do. However, I strongly oppose any restriction on peaceful protest, no matter how distasteful I think it might be.

Civil liberties are absolutes. The nomination of designated "victim groups" as meriting special laws, such that their wittle feelings will not be bruised, is one of the worst ideas to come on the American scene, ever.
I thought that the ACLU defended the protesters, and they have, but some Googling showed me that it has been a divisive issue: more than one ACLU affiliate argued against the national ACLU foundation, which was defending restrictions on demonstrators in a NY high court.
Definitely some hypocrisy there!

Anyway, I agree, Dedalus. But "peaceful protest," it's not.
When I was (much!) younger I used Planned Parenthood as my obgyn, before the bubble law.
That mean walking past those protesters every time I needed a checkup.
Those people do NOT protest peacefully. They harassed every single young woman who walked down the Planned Parenthood sidewalk. I was coming for a checkup, not an abortion, but they didn't care.
I don't care about their pictures of bloody fetuses, I can just look away from that. But they would scream and yell and carry on. Their "Sidewalk Counseling" was horrendous. Women had to be escorted to and from the clinic.
The entire time I sat in the waiting room: "Mommy Mommy Mommy!" The entire time I saw in the stirrups, getting a Pap smear: "Mommy Mommy Mommy!"
And I was just a person passing through. I can't imagine what it would be like to live nearby, let alone work there.
The clinic people said that those folks were there every single day. Not once or twice a month. Every single day.
And now with Colorado's bubble law, they have to stay eight feet away.
I am sure that everyone in the clinic still hears the screaming loud and clear.
But I do know what you mean.

This ACLU joke cracked me up:
"If you agree with the ACLU 75 percent of the time, you should be a member, and if you agree 50 percent of the time, you should take a leadership role."
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Old 01-11-2007, 10:25 AM
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
28,324 posts, read 43,680,182 times
Reputation: 18873
Quote:
Originally Posted by cil View Post
I thought that the ACLU defended the protesters, and they have, but some Googling showed me that it has been a divisive issue: more than one ACLU affiliate argued against the national ACLU foundation, which was defending restrictions on demonstrators in a NY high court.
Definitely some hypocrisy there!
I think (not sure, though) the local affiliates basically make their own rules... kind of like a franchise of a larger corporation, which gets to manage on their own. I'm sure the issues vary greatly from state to state, so this would make sense.

Quote:
Anyway, I agree, Dedalus. But "peaceful protest," it's not.
When I was (much!) younger I used Planned Parenthood as my obgyn, before the bubble law.
That mean walking past those protesters every time I needed a checkup.
Those people do NOT protest peacefully. They harassed every single young woman who walked down the Planned Parenthood sidewalk. I was coming for a checkup, not an abortion, but they didn't care.
I don't care about their pictures of bloody fetuses, I can just look away from that. But they would scream and yell and carry on. Their "Sidewalk Counseling" was horrendous. Women had to be escorted to and from the clinic.
The entire time I sat in the waiting room: "Mommy Mommy Mommy!" The entire time I saw in the stirrups, getting a Pap smear: "Mommy Mommy Mommy!"
And I was just a person passing through. I can't imagine what it would be like to live nearby, let alone work there.
The clinic people said that those folks were there every single day. Not once or twice a month. Every single day.
I completely agree about the PP protesters... I also used them for regular check-ups when I was younger, because it was cheap & easy to get appointments. Luckily I never encountered protesters, since these clinics were in extremely liberal areas (Bay Area & Eugene, OR). But I have seen videos, photos, and stories about them, and they NEED to be regulated. It's mainly young girls who visit PP, for many reasons besides abortions, and they shouldn't have to see those images - or be shouted at by zealots.

Not to mention, how many clinics have been bombed & how many doctors have been murdered (or attempted murder)? In some parts of the country, the staff members need armed escorts and bullet-proof vests to enter the building... these people are just trying to do their jobs, and I respect their strength in dealing with this. But those protesters have officially crossed the line of "peaceful protest", and therefore have given up those rights - in my opinion. Anyway, I'm rambling now... but it's a subject that upsets me, since I think they're a great organization. And I think it's awful what they put you through!
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Old 01-14-2007, 09:17 PM
 
Location: Small patch of terra firma
1,275 posts, read 2,129,154 times
Reputation: 536
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhnay View Post
What Happened to separation of church and state.. Show me where it states that in our Constitution.

The text of the amendment reads as follows:


Now many people confuse this with a letter Jefferson wrote after the fact..



Other than that.. some interresting post here..im learning what it means to be liberal.
Muhnay, Jefferson's quote provided background on the meaning of the statement in the 1st Amendment. Adams also wrote similar language regarding the separation. If you read their writings you would see they were very clear that matters of faith and conscience belong to the people and not the government. They studied history, better than our students today, and understood that problems occur when government and religion intertwine. They wanted two separate spheres, one in which people control their faith and government governs people, not their beliefs or sides with them. That is in the best interest for all.

You know what else you dont see in the Constitution? Checks and Balances? Tell me where that is written. It's not, it's also the understanding.

Getting back what is a liberal, simply put it is someone who prefers to see all sides of an issue. Not someone who only sees two sides. However for the sake of this discussion there will be no right or wrong answer. It is like trying to describe a platypus to someone and only have one small view of it of it. Someone with another view may describe it differently and then another person with another view has another description. Are they all right or wrong? They are right depending on the view they have but wrong based on what they dont see.
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Old 01-14-2007, 09:46 PM
 
Location: in my imagination
11,094 posts, read 18,175,492 times
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in classic terms I would be a liberal,in political terms Im a conservative/libertarian.

my opinion on modern liberalism.Look at voting records and what liberals generally vote or support and it says it all.Belief in centralized/socialism big government which also means support of tax after tax to support said big/centralized government....which under the foundation of America limited small Federal government was suppose to be the way.

Corporate greed?,yes there is but what about government greed?I don't want to be nannied by the state because there are those that know "whats good for me or best for me".Why is it social security for example,my paycheck through the years is pilaged yet in time Im supposedly given that money back,im measly amounts,told how to spend it and I can't even use to to inherit for my family?...why?

2ndamendment/self defense....again I think as myself as a individual not a sheep,self defense is a natural right...government will protect me?Look at hurricane Katrina when police and national guard went house to house disarming citizens and left them disarmed to defend themselves against criminals...and yes all the Bill of Rights is individual rights.I dont need to be saved from myself,whether I smoke,eat fastfood or whatever.

modern liberals tend to view problems with emotion..its not the end result but how was "felt" trying to do the right thing.

I'll never vote for the donkey because of this though some elephants are just as bad.


as far as open minded,in the end I've experienced liberals to be the most closed minded/elitist though they often say this about those who disagree with them.

states/individual rights ala the 10th amendment has seriously eroded over the years.

and when liberals think its good to take from the rich and give to the poor(giving enought to the poor to just scrape by) ala Robin Hood..remember that Robin Hood stole from the King and sheriff...which they were government.

anyway...life goes on

oh and gay rights....I do not support the Bush admin when they say there should be a amendment agaisnt marriage.Its not that I support this buts not the business of the federal government to get involved in it...leave that to states rights.

another thing,the military is usually fround by modern liberals,we all want peace but sometimes you gotta fight for peace.

Last edited by lionking; 01-14-2007 at 09:55 PM..
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Old 01-14-2007, 11:07 PM
 
Location: Small patch of terra firma
1,275 posts, read 2,129,154 times
Reputation: 536
Quote:
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
oh and gay rights....I do not support the Bush admin when they say there should be a amendment agaisnt marriage.Its not that I support this buts not the business of the federal government to get involved in it...leave that to states rights.
.
lionking, what about not leaving this up to the federal government or the states but keeping it an individual right maintained by the people. Refer to the 9th amendment.

Benjamin Goodhue, a Representative and Senator from Massachusetts who was a part of the Constitutional convention on the Bill of Rights, said it best when he stated “it is the wish of many of our constituents, that something should be added to the Constitution, to secure in a stronger manner their liberties from the inroads of power”.

That's the maxim I follow when amendments are proposed. My question is always, "how does this protect me from the government".
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Old 01-15-2007, 05:38 PM
 
Location: Your mind
2,923 posts, read 4,497,132 times
Reputation: 589
Default In modern terms

in America, I'd say a "liberal" is someone who supports government programs/social services and regulations to serve utilitarian goals, while placing more emphasis on private, non-economic freedom and civil liberties than their conservative opposition. This is different from places in Europe where "liberals" are more like the conservative opposition to socialists, who are way more powerful there than they are here.
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