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I am an Evangelical Christian. I do not believe in the "prosperity gospel" because I serve a Savior that never had place to rest His head and who taught that "whatsoever you do to the least of these you do to me." He lived His life on earth in poverty. Am I to believe that His Father did not love Him? All of his disciples were martyred. Am I to believe that He did not love them? He told us that we were to serve..not to be served and that he who would be first must be last. So everything represented by this new prosperity gospel goes against everything the One I worship taught. I think that the neo cons have cold bloodedly used people's faith and belief in the right to life to gain power and wealth. I believe they sit in their mansions and laugh themselves silly about how everyday working people will vote against their own best interests if the politicians the neo cons support just use the right buzz words. The neo cons have had almost 8 years of uninterrupted power and have done nothing to end abortion. What they have done is do away with every program that could help poor people, single mothers, working people support the children they have. And what they try to make people believe is that God is a republican. I think that when they face God they are going to have to realize that they are facing the One who drove the money changers out of the temple and called the neo cons of His day hypocrites.
Here, here. The actual pro life movement requires that we support the lives here as well as the unborn and the neo cons seem to disdain the lives once born.
Then what do you care? If those people aren't assured salvation then it doesn't concern you. And I most certainly agree that religion is a form of social control. However, I find it disingenous when a person such as your self questions anothers salvation. Perhaps you have the ability to accurately diagnose the state of Protestantism today, but you also have no grounds to declare who is worthy of salvation and who is not.
Man, are you missing the point, Jane got it. In a discussion of why there's immorality I gave a reason.
Actually I think you do get the point but want to throw a misdirection at me.
You want the religous right in the democratic party? Fine, you can have them.
When the religious right realizes that most of their issues can be tied to economic disparity (not to mention that alone can be considered a religious issue), I'd watch out if I was an economic conservative.
When the religious right realizes that most of their issues can be tied to economic disparity (not to mention that alone can be considered a religious issue), I'd watch out if I was an economic conservative.
Exactly, economically Christianity demands that we give from our poverty as well as our wealth. It demands that we treat all God's children as brother and sister in Christ whether we agree with them or not. So when the evangelicals movement matures, it will see that the road to fewer abortions, less crime and more community connection comes when people are not scrabbling.
First I should say that while I'm a christian, I'm not a part of the "religious right". I just happen to be politically conservative.
I think your perceptions are right on, except abortion. I don't think it's viewed that positively. That said, I've thought about this myself, and this is my conclusion: That while a lot of christians were out being activists, they forgot their communities, families and schools. Also, they forgot to remind their fellow christians of their obligation to be a light for Christ in their communities. Instead they were told "If you want to help American society, vote for _______; Never mind the belief that the best way to change someone's heart is to follow Jesus as Lord
While I am opposed to abortion, no-fault divorce etc...I don't believe these problems will ultimately be solved by government decrees, but by changing the hearts of the American public; for unwed mothers to love their unborn kids, for spouses to love each other, and for kids to be raised with respect for their parents and for those in authority. A lot of christians already do this, but it should be done more than it is.
Without getting into a big theological discussion, that's my perception. I hope that helps.
This is an excellent post. Even as an agnostic and former Christian, I totally agree with the sentiment. How wonderful would our society be if we just lived by the Golden Rule and lived Christ-like lives of love, humility, compassion, and forgiveness? Money wouldn't be our god, we'd help each other out, violence wouldn't run amok, we'd respect all forms of life and the planet we live on, we wouldn't be so narcissistic in general, we'd respect our neighbors' choices and agree to live and let live, as long as they afforded us the same respect ... I hear a John Lennon song coming on.
And I also agree that none of this is accomplished by laws and decrees. It has to come from leading by example. We haven't had leaders who have done that for a very long time, from either party.
Exactly, economically Christianity demands that we give from our poverty as well as our wealth. It demands that we treat all God's children as brother and sister in Christ whether we agree with them or not. So when the evangelicals movement matures, it will see that the road to fewer abortions, less crime and more community connection comes when people are not scrabbling.
This was proven by the economist who wrote "Freakonomics" the other year.
In the mid 1990's, there was a notable reduction in crime. Like the old saying goes, "success has a thousand fathers" and this was no exception. Bill Clinton claimed credit for his efforts to put 100,000 more cops on the street; Rudy Guiliani claimed credit for such programs as stopping graffiti; others claimed credit for building more prisons or handing out long prison terms.
Then along came economist Steven Leavitt who showed that as Roe v Wade took hold in 1973, a million or more very poor inner city and rural girls had abortions (annually) rather then bring an unplanned / unwanted children into a life of poverty. . . and we know that usually leads to misery and crime. Leavitt states with considerable authority that at least 1/3 of the drop in crime in the mid 1990's is because "the criminal class of the 1990's simply wasn't born." He gives equal credit for the decline to more cops, more prisons and longer sentencing.
The gist of Leavitt's research matches what janeannewho says; poverty-stricken / ignorant people are a source of much crime, and if we can prevent these needless pregnancies in the first place, we to a long ways to keeping people above the poverty level in our society. Once they slip into poverty and despair, and minimum wage territory, that scrabbling for a living makes "easy money" (drugs, sex trade, crime) look real promising. Neo-con efforts to keep a low minimum wage, cut taxes that support public schools, and block national health care work directly to maintain or enlarge the poverty/crime misery levels. THUS, it is in the BEST interests of the religious faithful to DEMAND excellent overall education and good sex education for all people. This goes a long ways to assuring that people are economically self sufficient and to PREVENT pregnancies in the first place, and thus reduce greatly the use of abortion as merely a way to achieve birth control after the fact.
Having grown up poor in west baltimore, I can tell you that poverty sucks, but at least I got a damned good public school education and spent many years getting my head, and my family's head, above water.
The worst crime that I can think of is to subject people to a pitiful level of education. Once you do that to a race or class of people, you all but guarantee them a life of misery. One need only look at the old ghetto's and mountain hollers to see the proof. Today's neo-cons want to subject young people to sexual ignorance, thus insuring a steady stream of surprise pregnancies, and lifetimes of misery and crime. The attitudes and beliefs of the neo-cons and ultra holy rollers are a hazard to our young people.
Last edited by Mike from back east; 07-01-2008 at 09:26 AM..
Maybe this is off topic a bit, but just want to interject this observation here, as a Protestant~~not all Protestants interpret "salvation by faith" to mean that you can live as you please, outside a vital relationship with Christ, and still be assured of salvation. Some groups teach and believe that once you have accepted Christ that your salvation is eternal no matter what you do, but that is NOT the essence and teaching of all Protestants. ( And even those that do, would probably question the true validity of someone's salvation if they choose to live like that.)
You may now return to your previously scheduled discussion.
Maybe this is off topic a bit, but just want to interject this observation here, as a Protestant~~not all Protestants interpret "salvation by faith" to mean that you can live as you please, outside a vital relationship with Christ, and still be assured of salvation. Some groups teach and believe that once you have accepted Christ that your salvation is eternal, but that is NOT the essence and teaching of all Protestants. ( And even those that do, would probably question the true validity of someone's salvation if they choose to live like that.)
You may now return to your previously scheduled discussion.
This post by kaykay illustrates my point perfectly Irishtom. Sorry if there was any confusion.
Maybe this is off topic a bit, but just want to interject this observation here, as a Protestant~~not all Protestants interpret "salvation by faith" to mean that you can live as you please, outside a vital relationship with Christ, and still be assured of salvation. Some groups teach and believe that once you have accepted Christ that your salvation is eternal, but that is NOT the essence and teaching of all Protestants. ( And even those that do, would probably question the true validity of someone's salvation if they choose to live like that.)
You may now return to your previously scheduled discussion.
I think I made that clear in my post, but if not, let me second your post here. I have lots of coworkers who change Churches like shoes, looking for the one that will be accepting of their lifestyle or beliefs. Rarely do I hear them becoming Lutheran, Methodist, or Episcopals or mainstream Baptist.
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