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Take is from an atheist. It doesnt happen just in Miami. I live in Arkansas now and see it here all the time. Of course, this is the bible belt and you would expect it. My girl, who is also atheist, works at the Walmart corporate office and she says they always pray at the meetings and talk about religion all the time. I have seen it at my job too although its a catholic hospital, you would think they would still be aware that not everyone is catholic. But it doenst really bother me and as long as I am not looked down for not lowering my head and praying, then I dont care what they do. I bring my atheist books to work and nobody says anything. Its called respect for other peoples beliefs. So if they pray and say the pledge of allegiance and you dont want too, dont!Simple as that.
What makes you think you're not being looked down on for not lowering your head and praying? Do you really think that would not impact your prospects for advancement? Do you expect that your girlfriend will make it very far in Walmart's management? Do the words "hostile work environment" mean anything to you?
Ask people who have grown up as non-Christians in this country what it's like. Then think about why non-Christian organizations like the Anti Defamation League are so strong on church/state separation, as well as the problem of discrimination and harassment in other contexts.
Don't you find it interesting that that people who call themselves strong followers of a certain religion, but who know nothing of their scriptures (like Matthew 6:6) feel the need to make big public deals about their devotion to their supreme being, and push it in your face while they're doing it?
I don't care what you believe, that's your business. I don't care what you think, that's your business. I don't care about your opinion as I have my own. generally I don't care what others think though if I find myself in a philosophical quandry I will occasionally consult with a mentor.
my age? funny you should ask because I am wondering about yours. I'm guessing a mental twelve for you.
Thompson ruled that Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore's placement of the 2.6-ton granite monument in the state building two years ago violated the U.S. Constitution's principle of separation of religion and government.
80% of Americans polled wanted the Ten Commandment monument to remain at the Alabama State Supreme Court. It doesn't matter; minorities are protected from the tyranny of even large majorities.
It doesn't matter; minorities are protected from the tyranny of even large majorities.
You seem to love saying that but who is protecting the majority from the tyranny of the minority? A minority of people voted for McCain so maybe he sould be president now. It seems in your world the minority is right all the rest of the time so why not in elections too?
Maybe this got lost in the cross talk but no one answered this one: If it is OK for the US Congress to open with a prayer, why is it not OK for the Miami Beach Commission?
Location: miami, fla. enjoying the relative cool, for now ;)
1,085 posts, read 2,531,154 times
Reputation: 1063
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cougar Beach
And you just don't get it. <followed by an extremely long whine>.
the one that does not get it is you. I believe I see a pattern here. you are one of those my way or the highway people.
my dear cougar beach there is no such thing as a separation of church and state clause in the constitution or in the bill of rights. perhaps you did not know this, perhaps you never heard of thomas jefferson's correspondance with the danbury baptists of connecticut. I will take this opportunity to post this historical document, the following being the last letter in the subject correspondance.
Jefferson's Letter to the Danbury Baptists
The Final Letter, as Sent
To messers. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.
Gentlemen
The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.
I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.
Th Jefferson
Jan. 1. 1802.
now I ask you to point out where there is a separation clause in the bill of rights or the constitution. point out where there is a clause prohibiting prayers and the expression of faith in governmental public meetings.
if you cannot then I will take this opportunity to point out that you should not miss this chance to shut up <not that I think you will given your propensity to blather on half cocked, as evidenced by your post count in such a short time period>. you are wrong, you are completely wrong and you have always been wrong. fools have equal rights as well and I'm one of those who champions your right to complete and utter folly.
Location: miami, fla. enjoying the relative cool, for now ;)
1,085 posts, read 2,531,154 times
Reputation: 1063
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerbacon
You seem to love saying that but who is protecting the majority from the tyranny of the minority? A minority of people voted for McCain so maybe he sould be president now. It seems in your world the minority is right all the rest of the time so why not in elections too?
Maybe this got lost in the cross talk but no one answered this one: If it is OK for the US Congress to open with a prayer, why is it not OK for the Miami Beach Commission?
of course it's ok and it is not illegal. what people like cougar beach want is for a petulant and foolish minority to impose their skewed views on the rest of us. it won't fly and the more they insist the more of us who will rise in opposition. I'm a live and let live type of man. I have made it abundantly clear that I respect the rights of all to complete freedom. what people such as cougar beach want is you and I to be "reasonable" and see things their way and if not they would force the government to make it so. they are the very antithesis of what it means to be free in a pluralistic society while shouting loudly that people like me are the intolerant ones.
I have spent my life plowing around those old and useless stumps. It is fun to watch them get all bent out of shape though,
A few years ago when I was working in an elementary school up north, the principal came into the teacher's lounge during lunch. He stood in the front of the room and said that he was required by law to ask the staff during their break time if they wanted to hold a prayer session. He asked for volunteers to say a prayer or read a passage from the Bible. Dead silence in the room. Let the record show, he said, that I offered it but the entire staff refused to participate. He then said thank you, left the room, and everyone starting talking and eating their lunch, as if nothing had ever been said.
What is that old saying? You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot force him to drink.
You seem to love saying that but who is protecting the majority from the tyranny of the minority? A minority of people voted for McCain so maybe he sould be president now. It seems in your world the minority is right all the rest of the time so why not in elections too?
Maybe this got lost in the cross talk but no one answered this one: If it is OK for the US Congress to open with a prayer, why is it not OK for the Miami Beach Commission?
Yes, I am fond of that phrase. It represents one of the most important principles of the Constitution, as well as our culture. The founders/framers were well aware of how frequently and easily the rights of minorities were trampled by majorities.
Your comparison to voting is a red herring. In a fair election, where there are no voting irregularities, no one's rights are violated. Does the Constitution say that McCain gets to win, even if he gets a minority of the votes? No? Then your analogy does not obtain.
The issue is not who's "right", whatever subjective thing you mean by that, but of law, as outlined by the Constitution. You don't have to prove you're right to have a right to speak (First Amendment), but you don't have the right to turn the Government into a chuch either (also the First Amendment, establishment clause). It doesn't matter if one person or a hundred million people want to do it. The Constitution precludes it.
You don't like that? Then amend the Constitution. You don't get to disregard whatever parts of the Constitution and the law you want to. On the other hand, if you want to commit an act of civil disobedience, you can, as long as you're prepared to suffer the consequences. That's between you and you conscience. Do you feel that strongly about government-sponsored/sanctioned religious activity?
> If it is OK for the US Congress to open with a prayer, why is it not OK for the Miami Beach Commission?
Go read the convoluted decisions by the Supreme Court (it's all on-line, of you're really interested; I'm tired of putting up links that no one clicks on). Basically, they say that the prayers effectively are traditional and have no sectarian religious content. (See how government corrupts religion when they become entangled? If you're religious, you should be offended; it's frankly blasphemous). The rulings of federal appeals courts (Circuit Courts) and the Supreme Court, and the reasoning behind them, have varied, and zigged and zagged. It often has a lot to do with who's sitting on the bench (Eleventh Circuit Court of Appeals justice William Pryor has written some opinions you'd be very fond of.)
The problem for a government body, when it comes to religious invocations and such, is that they walk a very thin legal line; they are always subject to lawsuit. Did you bother reading the link to the Texas Municipal League I put up? They put up objective information on the subject (and how hazy it all is), as well as information about a fairly recent Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals ruling that went against a locale.
If you think upholding the "principle" of government sponsored prayer is worth the expense of fighting continual lawsuits, then I'd have to say you're not a fiscal conservative. The City of Miami Beach has been involved in lawsuits regarding their violation of people's rights, and they know when to back off when it's a lost cause.
I wish you would understand the two main ideas here: Minorities don't have more rights than the majority (although that's a favorite canard of members of the majority because they no longer get to bulldoze the minority); Even if everyone wants to violate what the Constitution says, they cannot just because they are a large group -- if they don't like what the Constitution says, they can change it.
Personally, I don't think it would be a good idea for the government to be able to establish a religion (which means more than opening United States of Christ churches). That kind of entanglement has proven to be a disaster throughout history, has lead to vast corruption of religion, and is the main reason that Western Europe is so secular now. (Ireland is a great recent example.)
Last edited by Cougar Beach; 03-29-2009 at 05:18 PM..
A few years ago when I was working in an elementary school up north, the principal came into the teacher's lounge during lunch. He stood in the front of the room and said that he was required by law to ask the staff during their break time if they wanted to hold a prayer session. He asked for volunteers to say a prayer or read a passage from the Bible. Dead silence in the room. Let the record show, he said, that I offered it but the entire staff refused to participate. He then said thank you, left the room, and everyone starting talking and eating their lunch, as if nothing had ever been said.
What is that old saying? You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot force him to drink.
That's pretty strange. Where was that?
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