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Old 03-27-2009, 08:21 AM
 
Location: Tropical version of NJ (FL)
436 posts, read 1,086,675 times
Reputation: 82

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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerbacon View Post
Isn't everyone tired of this discussion yet? No one is going to convince the atheists that they live in a predominantly Christian country, founded by people with traditional Christian beliefs, and who see nothing wrong with saying a prayer before conducting business. Atheists, the ACLU, and other haters want to turn this country into a human secularists playground. They've been successful at changing laws by judicial 'discovery' but they haven't changed anyone's heart so they are frustrated when people continue to express what's in their hearts, despite it now being 'illegal' under the newly interpreted laws.
Excellent post! Agreed!
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Old 03-27-2009, 08:38 AM
 
Location: South Beach (MB, FL)
640 posts, read 1,819,680 times
Reputation: 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by dadeguy View Post
I personally have no problem with anyone else's religious preferances though I admit that to believe that there is only one path to the true God and that is through the person of Jesus Christ. I also agree that in a pluralistic society such as ours we must all accomodate each other and each other's views with civility and respect. I agree that perhaps in a public meeting there should be no public prayer whatsoever. However I respect the right of the decision makers to pray to whomever they so desire.

if a prayer were to be uttered in a public meeting invoking any but the one true God I would at that moment be supplicating the one true God quietly to allow his holy spirit to permeate the room and to shower the decision makers with wisdom. that's what I do anyway. you don't need to know I'm doing it but I will tell you this cougarbeach I'm supplicating the one true God on your behalf as I type. I hope you are not offended.

There probably aren't many things I care less about then your personal religious views. That you would go into detail about them on this forum, and particularly in this thread, is completely inappropriate, but very telling.

It highlights the fact that brainwashing and arrogant certainty about "how it is" causes people to run roughshod over others, all the while thinking they're doing them a great favor. A lot of people who live here in Miami Beach (more than you might imagine) have religious views at odds with yours. I have no reason to believe theirs are any less valid than yours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dadeguy View Post
I agree that perhaps in a public meeting there should be no public prayer whatsoever. However I respect the right of the decision makers to pray to whomever they so desire.
So we agree! I don't care how people manifest their religious beliefs, as long as they're not breaking the law doing it. I don't even care if if prayers are conducted at public events, as long as they're not government events. I mean, I might not love the idea, but I can tolerate it.

For the purposes of this thread then, we agree. Our views on theology are a subject for a different place.
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Old 03-27-2009, 08:50 AM
 
Location: South Beach (MB, FL)
640 posts, read 1,819,680 times
Reputation: 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by dadeguy View Post
You will find in me a very gracious and respectful person furthermore arguing on the internet is assenine though I do admit to having a perverse delight in anonymously poking the weak minded who attempt to come off otherwise, something I would not do in person out of respect for that person's feelings.
That sounds like the definition of a coward. You're an Internet bully? That's very Christian of you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dadeguy View Post
I admit it's a bit of a dichotomy but there you have it.
It's not a dichotomy. It's hypocrisy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dadeguy View Post
you are so far off the mark on so many points regarding these issues, parroting what others have told you without careful consideration or performing proper research prior to forming an opinion and having formulated those opinions so long ago that they are deeply ingrained. Humans love to hold onto their prejudices. far be it from me to interfere in anyone's love affairs.
The definition of "far off the mark" is "one who strongly disagrees with me", since your views by definition equate with truth. I assure you that what I'm saying is not a series of half-baked ideas. You were arguing faith while I'm arguing law and logic. You have hardly made a case for your views, and you keep dropping Jesus name, to no constructive end. Your obsession with the meaning of "republic", which you haven't demonstrated an understanding of, added nothing to the discussion. It's irrelevant. It indicated that you had no ammunition for the topic itself.

You can think you're quite clever and I'm utterly stupid as much as you want, but it doesn't make your case with respect to the issue under discussion. For the record, the only think I care less about than your religious view is your opinion of me.
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Old 03-27-2009, 08:57 AM
 
Location: South Beach (MB, FL)
640 posts, read 1,819,680 times
Reputation: 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerbacon View Post
Isn't everyone tired of this discussion yet?
It looks like you're not. There's always time to express another fascistic idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerbacon View Post
No one is going to convince the atheists that they live in a predominantly Christian country, founded by people with traditional Christian beliefs, and who see nothing wrong with saying a prayer before conducting business.
No one's going to convince atheists that gang rape in Lummus Park is a good idea either. But that's not the issue. The question is, Is it legal, or even ethical, to conduct religious prayers at government meetings?

You seem to have the strange idea that everyone who isn't a Christian (of which there are many flavors, some with deep mutual disagreements) is an atheist. I guess the Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Pagans, Satanists, etc. don't mean anything to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerbacon View Post
Atheists, the ACLU, and other haters want to turn this country into a human secularists playground. They've been successful at changing laws by judicial 'discovery' but they haven't changed anyone's heart so they are frustrated when people continue to express what's in their hearts, despite it now being 'illegal' under the newly interpreted laws.
Your hyperbole is ridiculous, and what you say doesn't even make sense. "Changed laws through judicial 'discovery'? That gibberish has no relationship to the topic, which is the issue of prayer at government meetings. Do I need to say it a 12th time for you to get it?

You can stow your right wing political screed. It's not relevant.
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Old 03-27-2009, 09:01 AM
 
Location: Downtown Raleigh, NC
2,086 posts, read 7,632,648 times
Reputation: 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cougar Beach View Post
The Founding Fathers were well aware of the downside of entanglement of religion in Europe; it was a disaster. The intolerance different Christian sects showed toward one another was also a disaster.
(thanks for the intelligent post, have to spread some rep around before I can give any to you again)

And it still is a worldwide disaster to this day. It is hard to believe that humans can't see that religion is the most divisive instrument in our lives and just get past it. Who cares what someone else believes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chelsa1075 View Post
I totally understand your point, but like it or not those who wrote that constitution all believed in God. At least, I don't remember any of them being Satanists. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Ok, I'll ask a rhetorical question. What is this "God" you are referring to anyway? So those who wrote the constitution all believed in God, but what does that mean? Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc. all believe in a singular "god", but none of them seem to recognize the other's as the "true" god because of differing beliefs. I still don't understand how something so unified as having blind faith can cause such a rift between human beings.

Also, people who do not believe in "god" are called Atheists, not "Satanists". And due to the religious persecution that was allowable at the time the Constitution was written, I'm sure people who did not believe in "God" feared for their life too much to say so. And that is the whole reason this country was founded - to be free of religious prosecution (which covers ALL religious or non-religious beliefs). Therefore, religion really has no place in legislation and government meetings, especially since we all can't agree on it!

Last edited by miamiblue; 03-27-2009 at 09:09 AM..
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Old 03-27-2009, 09:04 AM
 
Location: South Beach (MB, FL)
640 posts, read 1,819,680 times
Reputation: 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chelsa1075 View Post
That really isn't the same analogy - praying isn't against the law, beastiality is. I mean seriously.
Conducting religious services at government meetings is a violation of the Establishment Clause, described in the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.

On the other hand, bestiality is not illegal in Florida. If you don't believe me, look it up. There's a bill under consideration now in the Florida legislature to make it illegal. It may or may not pass. The one that was introduced a year ago did not pass. If harm to an animal can be shown, then a person who engages in bestiality can be charged with animal cruelty. I'm not sure that it would be easy to do that with a sheep.

Before rendering opinions on the law, I suggest you do some research. I would start with a study of the Bill of Rights. A good citizen should understand it.
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Old 03-27-2009, 09:16 AM
 
Location: Boston MA, by way of NYC
2,763 posts, read 6,752,746 times
Reputation: 507
I live in NY, so didn't check on the beastiality law there. But you should go and have lots of fun with that sheep.

As far as your interpretation of the violation, I respectfully disagree. It is not illegal to pray in court. You may not like it and you should take that up with your congressman, but doesn't change the fact that as of today it is not illegal and if he didn't like it he could have walked out until they were finished.

Your point would be much better taken if you weren't so rude about it. Why is it a problem that people disagree with you?
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Old 03-27-2009, 09:28 AM
 
Location: Boston MA, by way of NYC
2,763 posts, read 6,752,746 times
Reputation: 507
That is your point of view. But if 90 of the 100 people would like to pray, why can't they? Isn't that infringing on their rights? Why is it that 90 have to conform for 10? As you said we all believe in different things. Why is it so hard to accept those who want to have this prayer versus the ones who don't? Who are you, who am I or anyone else for that matter, to say that this is inappropriate? Now, if you told me that a Muslim was refused the right to pray in his way, then I would have a problem. Then it is obvious that people aren't being treated fairly. I'm not saying I agree or disagree that it is right or wrong, but I think that it should be a personal decision, not something written in a law that says we can or can not.
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Old 03-27-2009, 09:32 AM
 
Location: South Beach (MB, FL)
640 posts, read 1,819,680 times
Reputation: 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chelsa1075 View Post
Sweety, the entanglement of the two happened a long time ago. It is proven every 4 years when we vote for a Christian President
That entanglement is unfortunate, and very weird to people who aren't from Islamic Republics, but it is legal. A candidate can discuss his religious views to his heart's content. That a lot of people vote on that alone is a black mark on our democracy (our republic, dade guy), but such is the human condition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chelsa1075 View Post
I might not agree with someone praying to Satan, but who am I to stop them from doing it.
It's too bad that I have to keep dragging people back to the topic, rather than arguing the straw man that they want to argue. The issue is not of freedom to worship as one pleases. The issue is religious prayer at government meetings. You're okay with Satanic prayers at City Council meetings? Fine, but I'm not, and neither is the Constitution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chelsa1075 View Post
That is the very freedom we fought for so many years ago. I don't agree or disagree with the whole idea of prayer in the courtroom, but we all know that for the most part majority rules and for those who didn't want to participate they didn't have to.
Sorry, but that's not how it works. The majority doesn't just get to discriminate against and run over the minority. The Constitution is set up to preclude a tyranny of the majority. Sometimes things go wrong for a while (slavery, etc.), but only because the majority defined people with dark skin as non-human.

You really need to endeavor to have a greater understanding of the Constitution.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chelsa1075 View Post
That is the beauty of living in this country. People pray on the train all the time, often to a God I don't believe in, but that is their perrogative. I would find it more offensive if they tried to make me join in the prayer than them actually praying.
The beauty of this country is that the majority doesn't get to walk over the minority (at least, where it's precluded by the law; you are free to be as mean as you want to minorities in your daily life). The freedom to worship as one wishes was also a visionary idea of the Founding Fathers'.

When a religious prayer is conducted by someone who the City Council brings to conduct it, you are effectively being forced into joining the prayer. As far as I'm concerned, the people attending the meeting can pray to themselves from start to finish. I don't want the government to establish religious ideology -- it's illegal under the Constitution.

Do you understand the phrase, "We are a nation of laws, not people"? It means that people don't get to do what they want, just because they have the power to do so (although Bush turned that idea on its head). Everyone without exception must follow the Constitution and the laws. For instance, you don't get to kill people just because you're the governor. You also don't get to establish a government religion if you're the City Council.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chelsa1075 View Post
My question now is if our money is ok to be intrusted to him, why are we not allowed to mention him?
The Supreme Court used tortured logic to justify the motto on our coins, basically that the motto is just a bunch of traditional words, and isn't about the the real God. That reasoning is actually an insult to Abrahamic (Jewish, Christian, Muslim) believers. It secularized God. It's a symptom of how mixing religion and government corrupts both, but it corrupts religion in particular.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chelsa1075 View Post
I totally understand your point, but like it or not those who wrote that constitution all believed in God. At least, I don't remember any of them being Satanists. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
You obviously don't "totally" understand my point. A lot of the Founding Fathers an framers of the Constitution were Deists, and not Christians. Remember, it was the Age of Enlightenment at the time (an important period of history, leading to the founding of the U.S.; I suggest you learn about it). That's completely irrelevant, though. The Constitution is a secular document. An operator's manual for you food processor would be secular. So is the operator's manual for our republic.

Let me say it again: the religion of the founders of the U.S. is irrelevant. The Constitution and the republic are secular.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chelsa1075 View Post
It is okay to have your opinion about it. Others will disagree and that is okay too, makes for good conversation.
I would hope that that goes without saying. It will be true until a moderator deletes the thread.
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Old 03-27-2009, 09:41 AM
 
Location: Boston MA, by way of NYC
2,763 posts, read 6,752,746 times
Reputation: 507
I understand the Constitution just fine. But basically any point that I have that argues your point is clearly wrong. Let's just agree to disagree. You have your ideas and I have mine. Do you think that will make those who held that prayer stop?? Nope, I think that they will do it over and over and over again. With no one stopping them and you know what good for them!
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