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That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there.—George Orwell
It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.--Justice Robert H. Jackson
For a people who are free, and who mean to remain so, a well organized and armed militia is their best security.--Thomas Jefferson
Americans need never fear their government because of the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation.--James Madison
The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed.—Alexander Hamilton
Civilization exists precisely so that there may be no masses but rather men alert enough never to constitute masses.—Georges Bernanos
Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence.—George Washington
And by the way, the Constitution does not say Government shall decree the right to keep and bear arms. The Constitution says 'The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.—Ronald Reagan
Ammunition beats persuasion when you are looking for freedom.—Will Rogers
I cannot free another, and no one can free me. Freedom is acquired with the responsibility that sustains it.—Eric Schaub
If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.—1 Timothy 5:8
(Jesus to his disciples at the Last Supper) He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one—Luke 22:36
A system of licensing and registration is the perfect device to deny gun ownership to the bourgeoisie.—Vladimir Lenin
i have my fire arms and I love that second amendment, just like over 100 years ago slavery was abolished--100 years doesnt negate its pertinence or necessity
Well, when YOU ask about what the Founders say about freedoms, I give you "their" words. If it is not up to to "school boy" standards, I am sorry, give me a grade of "F", who cares.
But your inability to address the debate directly sure speaks volumes about your "foundational beliefs" on the Rights of Americans
We all wait impatiently for your next, sarcastic snippit.........make it good, we are getting bored.......
You have a habit of dodging legitimate debate, so what's left but sarcasm? It's fine to quote the founders, but back your premise up with some sound reasoning and original thought. Verbatim regurgitation -- now that's boring.
You dodged a very worthwhile question that, with your eminent grasp of the minds of the founders, would behoove you to answer:
How do you think T. Jefferson would have felt about arming the black slave population to defend their FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS against the tyranny of their masters and their government?
TJ and the others of that time did more for the Slaves that they "inherited" (via the system that was in place) than any other government at that time. They indeed saw all men as equals, and as such put in place the best situation that could be had at the time to free the slaves of America.
I am sure that will not answer your question. Now I could give you some quotes from Thomas Jefferson and other of that time to prove this point, but FFH seems to feel that actually using the words and works of those who were there is not as good as some wise crack, for an answer, by someone over 200 years later.
But once again this has nothing to do with the Second Amendment, or the fact that it acknowledges the Right of the private citizens to have access to guns, for the defense of themselves and the freedom of this nation. What it does prove is that any substantive arguments against the Liberty of firearm ownership of the American public in not available, at least not by you. You must sling mud where you can and redirect the debate away from the real topic.
Are there any other "American woes" we can bring up to try to discredit the foundation of the Second Amendment? Perhaps the fact that the Christopher Columbus really had no clue where he was has a bearing on this conversation?
Your only reason entering this debate has been to demonstrate a fearful perspective of mankind in general and Americans specifically. The thought of real people actually having Liberty to live their lives as they see best must fill you with terror.
Your ignorance of the subject is surpassed only be you sour attitude toward freedom and Liberty and your pitiful remarks to cover up your ignorance.
One thing that gives me comfort is that fact that the ignorant people will be less armed when they try to act on their igonrance
Every kook, hobo, and freak in America armed and ready to pull the trigger? I wonder how many accidental shootings there would be each day, not to mention the a law abiding gunman who mistakenly shoots someone who looks like a criminal? Wonder how many angry arguments would end in one hot-head shooting the other? I almost forgot the increase it would have on school shootings a la Columbine. Maybe we could even get some down in the elementary grades...Oh, and consider domestic disputes where spouses all have guns, and even spouses caught cheating would turn even more deadly than it already is in a world where everyone is armed. You never want to get busted cheating on your spouse or in a heated argument with your neighbor and not have your guy...it will be carry it with you at all times or you'll soon be wiped out.
Hi, have you met Chaos and his sister Anarchy?
It would be the wild west frontier all over again, but this time there would be better weapons and cars and technology and A LOT MORE PEOPLE - all increasing an individual's chances of being a target. We could enjoy the sport of dueling with pistols at 20 paces - a new Olympic event? This of course would be in addition to all of the impromptu duels in the streets. Wonder how many victims would be caught in the cross fire of all this activity?
Every kook, hobo, and freak in America armed and ready to pull the trigger? I wonder how many accidental shootings there would be each day, not to mention the a law abiding gunman who mistakenly shoots someone who looks like a criminal? Wonder how many angry arguments would end in one hot-head shooting the other? I almost forgot the increase it would have on school shootings a la Columbine. Maybe we could even get some down in the elementary grades...Oh, and consider domestic disputes where spouses all have guns, and even spouses caught cheating would turn even more deadly than it already is in a world where everyone is armed. You never want to get busted cheating on your spouse or in a heated argument with your neighbor and not have your guy...it will be carry it with you at all times or you'll soon be wiped out.
Hi, have you met Chaos and his sister Anarchy?
It would be the wild west frontier all over again, but this time there would be better weapons and cars and technology and A LOT MORE PEOPLE - all increasing an individual's chances of being a target. We could enjoy the sport of dueling with pistols at 20 paces - a new Olympic event? This of course would be in addition to all of the impromptu duels in the streets. Wonder how many victims would be caught in the cross fire of all this activity?
I really don't think what you are talking about would increase. I base that on the fact that it's already legal to own shotguns, rifles, and pistols. And with a permit, you can carry concealed. It's already here and there's been no increase. Matter of fact, there's been a decrease.
The 2nd gives me that right. I have shotguns, rifles, and pistols. I haven't killed anybody. Spouse and I have argued and I didn't even entertain the thought of a gun.
Law abiding citizens have a right, and a responsibility. If you want to do something about things, get on your politions to get busy.
When a guy robs a liquor store, he's looking at a 5 year sentence, minimum. If he uses a gun, there's another 10 years minimum. However, when he steps before that judge and crys that he had a bad childhood and wasn't granted the same privileges as some other kids, the judge feels sorry and gives him 3 years probation. Huh? What happened to minimum's?
I once talked with Senator Simpson and he asked what could be done with crime. I said, minimum sentences. He said, they're already in place. I said, no, do it this way. If the minimum sentence for a crime is 5 years and the judge gives him 2. Then somebody is going to serve 5. If the perp doesn't do all 5, then the judge can do the other 3. Minimum is minimum, let's make them stick with it.
TJ and the others of that time did more for the Slaves that they "inherited" (via the system that was in place) than any other government at that time. They indeed saw all men as equals, and as such put in place the best situation that could be had at the time to free the slaves of America.
As expected. You dodged. If they did see their slaves as equals, how could they possibly see themselves entitled to "inherit" them as property?
Yet you still didn't answer the question, "would TJ have armed the slaves?" OK. I'll answer it for you. No he wouldn't have. They (the slaves) would have butchered him and his slave-holding ilk in a matter of days. He knew it, and so did the rest of the founders.
So in context, one can credit the founders for not being pigheadedly absolutist about the 2nd amendment. They were really quite pragmatic in their interpretation of that right. Understandably.
[remaining blabber snipped]
The Founders were not gods, they didn't have all the answers, and in fact their thinking was as prone to fault as anyone else's. Times change and circumstances change. The lesson for you and me is that while we have the Constitution as a guide for governance, ultimately it's reasoned thinking, common sense and open debate that allows us to be free -- not slavish subservience to the American Creation Myth.
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Food for thought
