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Old 02-13-2007, 07:02 AM
 
Location: Haddington, E. Lothian, Scotland
752 posts, read 599,471 times
Reputation: 175

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark6052 View Post
I have an Idea, why dont we collect all the guns from the criminals first. And we dont need to register mine first(nice try). Prove to me that can be done. Good luck. What part of "shall not be infringed" dont you understand? Oh yeah, the FBI report said gun crime plummeted. Those right wing fbi guys are skewing in favor of the NRA?
Where did you get this? If you go directly to the link I sent you, from the FBIs Crime in the United States report, the firearm homicide counts are as follows:

2001: 8890
2002: 9528
2003: 9659
2004: 9385
2005: 10100

Verbatim stats. Where is this "plummeting" that you got from the FBI?
That link again is: http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/offenses/expanded_information/data/shrtable_07.html (broken link)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark6052 View Post
You pro-registration folks get me to laugh, gun registration fees paid by the gun owner.
Yup, you got that right. Gun registration paid for by the owner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark6052 View Post
Yeah I pay for my car registration,etc. Whats a good price for the "right" to keep my guns? Im sure you'll want the system to pay for itself. $100 per gun per year? Limits to how many? More tax on ammo? Pay for yearly training? whats the limit? Please lets hear this side of it. Would any of you that are not gun owners willing for your tax dollars to "help" out?
The amount to register them should be sufficient to cover the cost. If it costs $10M to manage the registration, and there are 10M new guns registered, the fee should be $1. The rest is arithmetic.

No tax dollars of mine should be used to fund your hobby. You want guns, you pay for the registration. I'll pay to register your guns the day you pay to register my car.
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Old 02-13-2007, 07:12 AM
 
9,715 posts, read 13,021,700 times
Reputation: 3315
Gun registration is a good idea.

I also think that gun laws are local. I believe any large city should have gun laws that prohibit carring on the streets. I don't even agree with concealed carry except in limited circumstances.

Guns are okay in rural areas, your home, your business. That's about it. "Rural areas" might actually be where your "business" is.
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Old 02-13-2007, 03:25 PM
 
137 posts, read 166,619 times
Reputation: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by FistFightingHairdresser View Post
It wouldn't, but it would encourage more responsible behavior on the part of gun owners. If gun owners knew they are *personally* responsible for the use any gun registered to them, they would be more vigilant than they are today about securing their weapons. If you have a gun registered to you, and you sell it on to another party without registering the sale, guess what: you're responsible for that gun. If you have a gun stolen from your house and it's not reported, guess what: you're responsible for that gun. If you lose a gun, guess what: you're responsible for that gun. Anything that gun is used for after it left your possession is your responsibility.

I dare say that gun owners are astute enough to understand that owning a gun is a huge responsibility. If they knew they faced jail when they don't live up to those responsibilities, they would be more vigilant in keeping their weapons secure.
I still don't understand what crimes you are going to prevent by such a registration program. You have a large group of asset owners that are overwhelmingly responsible, over 99.9%, you subject them to additional tax for a system that will do nothing toward your stated goal of crime prevention. What term could we apply to that type of thinking?

You admit that registration will do nothing to prevent crime, so you are for subjecting an overwhelmingly responsible, law abiding group to an unreasonable tax and intrusion?

The past is littered with gun registration programs that have been a disaster. The UK, Canada, Australia are just some of the modern national ones, there are many state and local ones in the US.

I still ask the question: If this registration program you desire were to fail (like almost all of them do) what is the next step? What will have to be done to insure that the remaining .01% of firearms used in the commission of a crime, from getting in the hands of criminals?

What has happens in the other crime rates (assault, rape, murder, robbery) when guns are successfully kept out of the hands of the citizens?

How do you interpret the information that firearms are used 2-3 times more to prevent/stop a crime than used to commit a crime? Is there any value to this?
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Old 02-13-2007, 03:46 PM
 
Location: Haddington, E. Lothian, Scotland
752 posts, read 599,471 times
Reputation: 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by funfaler View Post
I still don't understand what crimes you are going to prevent by such a registration program. You have a large group of asset owners that are overwhelmingly responsible, over 99.9%, you subject them to additional tax for a system that will do nothing toward your stated goal of crime prevention. What term could we apply to that type of thinking?
First of all, your 99.9% number is anecdotal, so I won't even touch it.

To explain why registration would be effective, let's use a concept that should be familiar to the engineers and economists in this forum: the principle of Stocks & Flows.

In every dynamic system, there are stocks and flows. A stock is a reservoir where things collect, flows are channels that either add to a stock or take away from a stock. Pretty simple.

So consider the inventory of guns in criminal hands as a stock. At any given time there is a certain amount of guns that criminals possess, and there are flows that both add to that amount and take away from it.

So what takes away from it? Well, when a criminal gets arrested, or when he disposes of a gun after a crime, that reduces the stock.

Now what adds to the stock? Rather than answer that, let me share with you the words of someone you as a gun advocate would know, Mr. Dave Kopel:

SOURCES OF CRIMINAL GUNS (from 2nd Amendment Project Issue Paper No. 1-2002)
# Purchased from a retail store, 8.3 percent.
# Purchased at a pawnshop, 3.8 percent.
# Purchased at a flea market, 1.0 percent.
# Purchased in a gun show, 0.7 percent.
# Obtained from friends or family, 39.6 percent.
# Got on the street/illegal source, 39.2 percent

So according to one of America's biggest gun advocates, nearly 60% of all guns that flow into the criminal stock of firearms were from legal sources. The remaining 40% were recycled from illegal stock...no telling how many of those were acquired legally, but it's safe to say that most of them were.

Here's the punchline: registering firearms will do *nothing* to reduce the stock of guns in the short run. I'll be the first to tell you that. But what it will do is clamp off the flow of legally-acquired guns into the illegal market. Make legal buyers culpable for the provenance of guns they register, and you'll see the inflow of guns slow to a trickle.

Over time, as arrests are made, as guns are disposed of, the stock of illegal guns will decrease.

Sure, you'll never get rid of all illegal guns, but it's certainly possible to cut the stock down to a fraction of what it is today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by funfaler View Post
You admit that registration will do nothing to prevent crime, so you are for subjecting an overwhelmingly responsible, law abiding group to an unreasonable tax and intrusion?
Unreasonable by whose definition? An intrusion by whose definition? As I said in my last post, do you consider registering to exercise your voting rights an intrusion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by funfaler View Post
The past is littered with gun registration programs that have been a disaster. The UK, Canada, Australia are just some of the modern national ones, there are many state and local ones in the US.
The UK gun registration program has been a success, actually. Gun deaths are a pittance compared to the USA. Same for Finland. I can't comment on Canada or Australia, except to say their gun death rates are considerably lower than the US. That speaks volumes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by funfaler View Post
I still ask the question: If this registration program you desire were to fail (like almost all of them do) what is the next step? What will have to be done to insure that the remaining .01% of firearms used in the commission of a crime, from getting in the hands of criminals?
As I said before, you'll never get rid of them all. But .01% is better than 100%. If we got that many guns out of criminal hands, I'd call it a resounding success.

Quote:
Originally Posted by funfaler View Post
What has happens in the other crime rates (assault, rape, murder, robbery) when guns are successfully kept out of the hands of the citizens?
Who says we keep guns out of the hands of citizens? A law abiding citizen retains the right to have a gun for defense. They just better register it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by funfaler View Post
How do you interpret that information that firearms are used 2-3 times more to prevent/stop a crime than used to commit a crime? Is there any value to this?
I'd first have to know who's information it is. What's the source? If those guns used to prevent crime were used by the police, I'd say duh. If they supposedly were used by civilians, I'd say not likely. Let's see the proof.
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Old 02-13-2007, 04:33 PM
 
Location: Spots Wyoming
18,696 posts, read 35,620,532 times
Reputation: 2147483647
Quote:
Originally Posted by FistFightingHairdresser View Post
SOURCES OF CRIMINAL GUNS (from 2nd Amendment Project Issue Paper No. 1-2002)
# Purchased from a retail store, 8.3 percent.
# Purchased at a pawnshop, 3.8 percent.
# Purchased at a flea market, 1.0 percent.
# Purchased in a gun show, 0.7 percent.
# Obtained from friends or family, 39.6 percent.
# Got on the street/illegal source, 39.2 percent

So according to one of America's biggest gun advocates, nearly 60% of all guns that flow into the criminal stock of firearms were from legal sources. The remaining 40% were recycled from illegal stock...no telling how many of those were acquired legally, but it's safe to say that most of them were.
The math is a little off. I show about 45%. But you also have to allow that that is a very small percentage of the firearms that are in the US.
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Old 02-13-2007, 06:31 PM
 
Location: FLORIDA
22 posts, read 27,539 times
Reputation: 9
Why FistFightingHairdresser do you want us to register guns?
Guns are already Back door registered in form 4473 I and others fill out at the gunshop so the dealer gets my name,address,affidavit if I have a criminal history or not,something that prevents me from getting the gun,and a signature.
The guns serial number,description,and model number is all recorded.
The background check costs $5 and I have to wait 3 days in my state to be able to pick it up.The FBI checks my entire record if Im clean they usually pass it and then I can pick it up after the 3 days go by.If I lie on the form 4473 and I am a prohibited person the police come and arrest me and charge me for false information or something like that and its automatic 5 years in jail or heavy fine.They can also deny me if they believe there is more to my record or if I tell the truth that I committed a crime in the past.
And a delay can happen to if they need more time to look into my record it rarely happens because you use a unique social security number to identify you because some people have similar names like Joe or Bob and they mess it up and redo it.
They will find out because its national instant crime check and they will know if I am lying or not.Thats why most criminals buy their guns Illigally through the black market and stuff.The only difference in all this is the Gun dealer keeps the record which can be requested by the ATF at any time.The other registration you are talking about is that its registered by the police.Why should I have to register my gun to the police when its already registered with my local gun dealer.And if I do something bad with my gun the police or ATF can go to the gun shop I bought the gun and find the record I filled out and use that against me.All the States in America have this system my state which is florida has it followed by a 3 day waiting period on all handguns,rifles,and shotguns.
Why make more laws when there already is a similar law?
Its already hard enough why make it ridiculous?
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Old 02-13-2007, 07:28 PM
 
Location: Haddington, E. Lothian, Scotland
752 posts, read 599,471 times
Reputation: 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmxx99 View Post
Why FistFightingHairdresser do you want us to register guns?
Guns are already Back door registered in form 4473 I and others fill out at the gunshop so the dealer gets my name,address,affidavit if I have a criminal history or not,something that prevents me from getting the gun,and a signature.
The guns serial number,description,and model number is all recorded.
The background check costs $5 and I have to wait 3 days in my state to be able to pick it up.The FBI checks my entire record if Im clean they usually pass it and then I can pick it up after the 3 days go by.If I lie on the form 4473 and I am a prohibited person the police come and arrest me and charge me for false information or something like that and its automatic 5 years in jail or heavy fine.They can also deny me if they believe there is more to my record or if I tell the truth that I committed a crime in the past.
And a delay can happen to if they need more time to look into my record it rarely happens because you use a unique social security number to identify you because some people have similar names like Joe or Bob and they mess it up and redo it.
They will find out because its national instant crime check and they will know if I am lying or not.Thats why most criminals buy their guns Illigally through the black market and stuff.The only difference in all this is the Gun dealer keeps the record which can be requested by the ATF at any time.The other registration you are talking about is that its registered by the police.Why should I have to register my gun to the police when its already registered with my local gun dealer.And if I do something bad with my gun the police or ATF can go to the gun shop I bought the gun and find the record I filled out and use that against me.All the States in America have this system my state which is florida has it followed by a 3 day waiting period on all handguns,rifles,and shotguns.
Why make more laws when there already is a similar law?
Its already hard enough why make it ridiculous?
Let me ask you this: you go through all this when you buy a gun legally...what happens when you sell that gun on to a private party? Are you required to make the buyer fill out an affadavit or are you required to register the sale? No, you aren't. There's the problem.

The current registration system only catches the front-end sale of weapons, it doesn't track the chain of custody. It's an ineffectual system because only the initial transaction is scrutinized but every subsequent sale involving that weapon is invisible.

When a gun is identified in a crime, law enforcement can consult the registration to see who originally bought the gun. But that information isn't helpful since there's no way to know how many owners the gun has had since the original sale. That's why you need the chain of custody.

Registration only works when all transactions require it, including private sales.

Last edited by FistFightingHairdresser; 02-13-2007 at 07:45 PM..
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Old 02-13-2007, 07:44 PM
 
Location: Haddington, E. Lothian, Scotland
752 posts, read 599,471 times
Reputation: 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by jgussler View Post
The math is a little off. I show about 45%. But you also have to allow that that is a very small percentage of the firearms that are in the US.
We're both off...the legal sources add up to 53.4%, so there's a 7.4% gap there. I just went to the source that Mr. Kopel quoted, and that 7.4% is categorized as "Other", for what it's worth. (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/fuo.pdf (broken link))

It doesn't negate the point, though.

Legally-purchased weapons are a huge inflow to the criminal gun market. The 39% of weapons that come from another illegal source are either a) a secondary illegal sale or b) are brought into the country from the outside. But given the wide availability of weapons in this country, how many black market guns really need to be imported?

The data still support my premise: illegal guns begin their life as legal ones.
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Old 02-13-2007, 08:04 PM
 
137 posts, read 166,619 times
Reputation: 27
If one does a Google search for "UK gun crimes and/or control" the same for Australia, and Canada, you will see a predominance of stories outlining the failures of their systems. Crime rates are going up in all categories vs. down in the US.

The UK system is a failure on many levels. Crime is increasing. They are getting more victims, because the criminals are not concerned about being stopped by an armed citizen.

The women are suffering greatly for this silly program, rapes up, assault up.

The system is a failure even by your standards, because it resulted in wide spread gun confiscation, a goal that you stated is not your desire. The same in Australia.

Canada's system is nearly bankrupting the nation. Billions of $$ wasted, very low compliance, no reduction in crime and perhaps an increase.

Gun Registration leads to gun confiscation, pure and simple. Can't think of a place where it hasn't. Even here in the US, registration is followed by confiscation.

Gun Registration has only one purpose, to give the government direct access to a list of gun owners so they may target them with excessive, abusive taxes and regulations.

Would you be happy with a registration system, held by the manufactures, sellers, only to be given to the government under a court order, for each case?
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Old 02-13-2007, 08:13 PM
 
Location: FLORIDA
22 posts, read 27,539 times
Reputation: 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by FistFightingHairdresser View Post
Let me ask you this: you go through all this when you buy a gun legally...what happens when you sell that gun on to a private party? Are you required to make the buyer fill out an affadavit or are you required to register the sale? No, you aren't. There's the problem.

The current registration system only catches the front-end sale of weapons, it doesn't track the chain of custody. It's an ineffectual system because only the initial transaction is scrutinized but every subsequent sale involving that weapon is invisible.

When a gun is identified in a crime, law enforcement can consult the registration to see who originally bought the gun. But that information isn't helpful since there's no way to know how many owners the gun has had since the original sale. That's why you need the chain of custody.

Registration only works when all transactions require it, including private sales.
A guy using the gun for a crime will be mostly caught anyway.
You cant prevent him from getting his gun he will always find a way to commit the crime if he cant get a gun through private party he will get a knife or steal a police gun from a squad car or something.
There are many ways to get a gun,registration does little to nothing in preventing a criminal from getting his gun.And even if he cant get a gun he will use a other weapon or steal one from someone else.Registration for private sales is just another burden for law abiding citizens and wont prevent most determined criminals from obtaining a gun.They will find many other ways to get one and will get their way.
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