U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 02-21-2007, 06:28 PM
 
137 posts, read 166,525 times
Reputation: 27

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by FistFightingHairdresser View Post
I can show you another country that still allows them after registration.

So my response to you is that people are allowed to own firearms under the 2nd Amendment of the Constitution. Registration doesn't change that. You still have the right to own a gun; the registration is a means to ensure you exercise that right responsibly. .

This leads us to the base of these Constitutional discussions. Where do our Rights come from. Your statements indicate that you feel that they are granted to us from the government.

The Constitution grants NO Rights.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 02-21-2007, 06:33 PM
 
137 posts, read 166,525 times
Reputation: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by FistFightingHairdresser View Post
And as for extreme laws of possession & transportation, in Finland at least you can keep the guns in your home. They must be securely locked in a gun safe. You can't open carry in populated areas and you can't keep your weapon loaded when transporting it in a car. I'm not seeing where this is extreme.
This sounds like it might be the "Keep" of the "Keep and Bear" fame, but is surely not the "Bear" part of that.

It all goes back to "asking permission to exercise a Right". At that point, it ceases to be a Right.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-21-2007, 09:13 PM
 
919 posts, read 1,674,653 times
Reputation: 478
FFH, YOU stated that confiscation in the UK and autralia is "no indication whatsoever what happens there (uk, aus) will happen inthe US. Yet you have stated that registration has reduced crime! Hmm..NO indication that registration will lead to confiscation? I wish I could type in brail, because you cant see the obvious. Now dont dodge the question (everybody) how do YOU garuntee no confiscation after registration? Please address this point.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-21-2007, 09:54 PM
 
Location: Haddington, E. Lothian, Scotland
752 posts, read 598,680 times
Reputation: 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by funfaler View Post
This leads us to the base of these Constitutional discussions. Where do our Rights come from. Your statements indicate that you feel that they are granted to us from the government.

The Constitution grants NO Rights.
Yes, yes, you've said before. The right to own guns existed for all eternity, bubbling up from the primordial miasma, floating around for billions of years only to be actualized on this Earth in 1787.

So indeed, where do our rights come from? And if they existed for all time, why do we need a document to recognize them? And why are there only 10 of them? And why out of the many billions of people who have ever lived do a few Americans have a monopoly on them?

And most critically, why didn't these primordial rights exist for every American, regardless of race, color or gender? Oh sorry I forgot, you've answered that already. They "technically" weren't Americans.

Last edited by FistFightingHairdresser; 02-21-2007 at 10:18 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-21-2007, 10:09 PM
 
Location: Haddington, E. Lothian, Scotland
752 posts, read 598,680 times
Reputation: 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark6052 View Post
FFH, YOU stated that confiscation in the UK and autralia is "no indication whatsoever what happens there (uk, aus) will happen inthe US. Yet you have stated that registration has reduced crime! Hmm..NO indication that registration will lead to confiscation? I wish I could type in brail, because you cant see the obvious. Now dont dodge the question (everybody) how do YOU garuntee no confiscation after registration? Please address this point.
Mark, what *are* you talking about? Tie your thoughts together. Let me spell it out for you, in Brail [sic] if you like. I garuntee [sic] you'll see the light.

Registration will reduce crime, and I'll tell you how. If you register all firearm sales, both PRIVATE and RETAIL and not just retail, nearly every gun serial number will be traceable to the last legal owner. If that particular gun is used in a crime, the last legal owner is culpable for criminal negligence.

I've said it before, I'll say it again for your benefit Mark: first you make gun owners responsible for their guns, and hold the threat of criminal prosecution for any gun registered to them used in a crime -- then you'll see an immediate and dramatic reduction in legal guns jumping the fence into the illegal market.

I'll stand by the argument, registration reduces crime. Rather than doing your intellectual work for you Mark, I'll let you try it for once. Show me one country with established gun registration laws where the gun crime rate is higher than the United States. Just show us one.

As for the issue of your equating registration with confiscation. Some countries have eliminated gun ownership, some haven't. My point is that it's irrelevant whether they confiscate or not. The thing to notice is that countries that REGISTER all gun transactions have a demonstrably lower gun crime rate. Confiscating guns from law-abiding citizens doesn't lower crime, closing off the flow of guns into the illegal market does. That's why you register all transactions, even private ones.

Got it?

And I also stand by the statement that what happens in the UK or Australia has precious little to do with what happens in the US. The US has a different legal & political tradition than either of these countries, and given the higher concentration of ape-necked hillbillies in the US, one could hardly expect a legislative outcome anywhere near what you see anywhere else in the world.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-21-2007, 10:19 PM
 
Location: Haddington, E. Lothian, Scotland
752 posts, read 598,680 times
Reputation: 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by funfaler View Post
This sounds like it might be the "Keep" of the "Keep and Bear" fame, but is surely not the "Bear" part of that.

It all goes back to "asking permission to exercise a Right". At that point, it ceases to be a Right.
Registration isn't permission. Does registering to vote imply asking permission to make your choice of candidate?

Funny you never do address this very valid analogy.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-21-2007, 10:21 PM
 
Location: Haddington, E. Lothian, Scotland
752 posts, read 598,680 times
Reputation: 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by funfaler View Post
Then I assume that the gun owners are aready paying for the registration program that is going on now, so no need for a surcharge.
Nope. It's a taxpayer-funded program. We need to unload this useless liberal subsidy and let the gun owners pay their way for a change.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-21-2007, 10:23 PM
 
Location: Haddington, E. Lothian, Scotland
752 posts, read 598,680 times
Reputation: 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by winnie View Post
Because in the 18th century, "arms" was often used to describe a militia, "the people" is used collectively as in "all the people of that state". People argue that this amendment can be read in a manner that guarantees the state's abilities to raise their own National Guard.

The argument is out there...
Hey winnie, you and funfaler should compare notes on what an "arm" is. When you both come to a consensus do let us know.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-21-2007, 10:52 PM
 
1,330 posts, read 4,553,197 times
Reputation: 476
Hmmm. That is a tough one. Part of one's anatomy? In today's world I think "arms" means weapons. In the 1770's in the context of the second amendment, I believe it meant "militia".

I am pretty sure funfaler is going to completely disagree with both interpretations, and of the meaning of those 2 commas in the original handwritten bill hanging in the National Archives. Just as courts, politicians and lawyers have for a couple centuries.

If you are going to say that every person born in the USA has the "god given" right to carry a firearm, I say then let's allow manic depressives, criminals, children, blind people and people with multiple personality disorders carry firearms. Afterall, they were all created "by god" and have these "god given rights"..so what is the problem? Simple. If you disagree that these people should be allowed to carry guns then how can you agree that these rights are truely rights we are born with and not rights, or "privelages" that society gives?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-21-2007, 10:54 PM
 
1,330 posts, read 4,553,197 times
Reputation: 476
Oh and FFH- question for you! Are police in England allowed to carry guns? My DH wants to know.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top