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Old 05-18-2007, 07:34 AM
 
763 posts, read 1,295,835 times
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FistFightingHairdresser,

You wrote on 01-17-2007, 02:17 PM:

“A great topic.

All rights, even those defined in the constitution, are circumscribed by law. Observe the amendments to the Bill of Rights, eg:

Amendment I:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

* Your right to free speech is unlimited unless your free speech involves slander, sedition or perjury.

* Your right to assemble is unlimited unless you choose to assemble someplace where the police tell you to move on.

Amendment VII:
In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

* So when was the last time your $100 speeding ticket was heard by a trial by jury? And where not, escalated to the Appelate Court?

Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

* Unless your name is Hamid.

Amendment VI
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.

* So are you ready to agitate for the speedy trial of every jailed criminal waiting for their day in court?

So even our most fundamental rights guaranteed under the Constitution are abridged in one way or another. Why do gun rights advocates think that #2 out of 10 is somehow sacrosanct?”

The above is a great post and it contains important commentary on what we have allowed to happen in America. Anything that happens to erode our rights should be corrected, and then we must look inward and decide that it’s time to end the era of apathy once and for all.
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Old 05-18-2007, 07:38 AM
 
911 posts, read 3,203,165 times
Reputation: 176
Thumbs up Don't Forget...

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLaSalle View Post
And people have been known to get hit by "Space Junk"...
"The Right of the People to Keep and Bear Arms...Shall not be Infringed...

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Old 05-18-2007, 07:51 AM
 
Location: Haddington, E. Lothian, Scotland
752 posts, read 595,868 times
Reputation: 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by happyappy View Post
FistFightingHairdresser,

You wrote on 01-17-2007, 02:17 PM:

“A great topic.

All rights, even those defined in the constitution, are circumscribed by law. Observe the amendments to the Bill of Rights, eg:

Amendment I:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

* Your right to free speech is unlimited unless your free speech involves slander, sedition or perjury.

* Your right to assemble is unlimited unless you choose to assemble someplace where the police tell you to move on.

Amendment VII:
In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

* So when was the last time your $100 speeding ticket was heard by a trial by jury? And where not, escalated to the Appelate Court?

Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

* Unless your name is Hamid.

Amendment VI
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.

* So are you ready to agitate for the speedy trial of every jailed criminal waiting for their day in court?

So even our most fundamental rights guaranteed under the Constitution are abridged in one way or another. Why do gun rights advocates think that #2 out of 10 is somehow sacrosanct?”

The above is a great post and it contains important commentary on what we have allowed to happen in America. Anything that happens to erode our rights should be corrected, and then we must look inward and decide that it’s time to end the era of apathy once and for all.
Are my bullets controversial in your opinion? Care to dispute any of them?
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Old 05-18-2007, 07:54 AM
 
Location: Haddington, E. Lothian, Scotland
752 posts, read 595,868 times
Reputation: 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLaSalle View Post
"The Right of the People to Keep and Bear Arms...Shall not be Infringed...

Two streams on the same topic. Have a read through my piece that happyappy saw worthy of a dustoff, and let's take it from there.
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Old 05-18-2007, 07:54 AM
 
911 posts, read 3,203,165 times
Reputation: 176
Question ?????.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by FistFightingHairdresser View Post
Are my bullets controversial in your opinion? Care to dispute any of them?
Bullets? Pun Intended...
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Old 05-18-2007, 07:57 AM
 
911 posts, read 3,203,165 times
Reputation: 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by FistFightingHairdresser View Post
Two streams on the same topic. Have a read through my piece that happyappy saw worthy of a dustoff, and let's take it from there.
Let's not, and say we did...
Sorry, I AM Moving yikes...

I promise I will read this thread in its entirety soon though...
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Old 05-18-2007, 08:00 AM
 
Location: Haddington, E. Lothian, Scotland
752 posts, read 595,868 times
Reputation: 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLaSalle View Post
Let's not, and say we did...
Sorry, I AM Moving yikes...

I promise I will read this thread in its entirety soon though...
If the past three posts serve as any indication, I've got a feeling this thread is going to start to read like Naked Lunch.
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Old 05-18-2007, 08:02 AM
 
763 posts, read 1,295,835 times
Reputation: 248
FistFightingHairdresser,

You wrote: “I may be slow. But I read the above 3 times and can't untangle the scenario you're trying to describe. Are you saying we need separate state militias to protect ourselves from a federally-hired mercenary army?”

No. And you aren’t slow, so you’ve read something into it that doesn’t exist.

You wrote: “Everyone, including those with criminal records? Or the insane? Or the non-resident alien?”

Come on! Get serious. You understand the intent and the meaning. I’ve read many of your posts and you don’t seem the type that requires diction and syntax policing.

You wrote: “If by "everyone" you mean every law-abiding American citizen, then yes, military service should be compulsory. Every American protected by the Constitution should be trained in the means to defend it.”

NO! If the citizens of any State vote overwhelmingly to make service in a militia mandatory, then so be it. Yes, “every law-abiding American citizen” should be willing to participate in training and support of State militias.

You wrote: “You've lost me again. You describe a nightmare scenario where the federal government contracts out the maintenance of militias. Now you propose to privatize the state militias, but support them with taxes. How can something be privatized if it's funded by taxes? What is your point?”

Again with the refusal to properly analyze! Here it is again: “Privatization” means just that—private. It has somehow come to mean crony-corporatization. Yes, by all means, let’s privatize our militias. Let’s make them corporations supported by our taxes, equally shared.

The word privatization to the masses, because of the misuse of the word, has taken on a negative context. Privatization does not necessarily mean giving control of something over to government/corporate cronies.

Privatization can and should mean the people participating as individuals, but collectively as in a corporation, taking control of something and operating it as a business that makes a profit because of sound business decisions. This is in opposition to the type of operation that leaves the decisions to a group of government officials who may or may not know how to achieve the efficiencies that sound business decisions normally achieve. And, if the people so wish it, the organization can be funded with taxes. After all, taxes are merely expediencies to collect “dues” to support those things the people have voted to support.

And, yes, it certainly would be a nightmare scenario should such a thing occur as I described. And the very best reason of all for the people to keep and bear arms. For those who choose to ignore it, it might be good to hope and/or pray that “it won't happen here” as it may provide comfort to some.

Last edited by happyappy; 05-18-2007 at 08:31 AM.. Reason: incorrect sentence structure
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Old 05-18-2007, 08:12 AM
 
763 posts, read 1,295,835 times
Reputation: 248
FistFightingHairdresser,

You wrote: "Are my bullets controversial in your opinion? Care to dispute any of them?"

I’m not quite sure what your game is, but my post contained this:

“The above is a great post and it contains important commentary on what we have allowed to happen in America. Anything that happens to erode our rights should be corrected, and then we must look inward and decide that it’s time to end the era of apathy once and for all.”

So, no, I don’t dispute your bullets, I agree with them as I posted.
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Old 05-18-2007, 08:21 AM
 
Location: Haddington, E. Lothian, Scotland
752 posts, read 595,868 times
Reputation: 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by happyappy View Post
FistFightingHairdresser,
You wrote: “Everyone, including those with criminal records? Or the insane? Or the non-resident alien?”
Come on! Get serious. You understand the intent and the meaning. I’ve read many of your posts and you don’t seem the type that requires diction and syntax policing.
It's a salient point. The definition of "Everyone" is a moving target. If you plow through the history of this thread, when talking gun rights you'll hear that "Everyone" can mean any number of things: citizens, non-citizens, the infirm, children, the insane. So it's not syntax policing at all. It's just to establish where your parked on this issue.

And when talking about gun rights, you'll have the same problem with the definition of "arms". Do we mean rifles? Hand grenades? High explosives? Chemical weapons? Anthrax? Of course you can tell me to get serious, but again, take this thread from page 1 and I promise you'll read every possible definition for "arms".

Now you watch, another will join this thread who has a different interpretation of "intent and meaning" than either you or I have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by happyappy View Post
NO! If the citizens of any State vote overwhelmingly to make service in a militia mandatory, then so be it. Yes, “every law-abiding American citizen” should be willing to participate in training and support of State militias.

Difference of opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by happyappy View Post
Again with the refusal to properly analyze! Here it is again: “Privatization” means just that—private. It has somehow come to mean crony-corporatization. Yes, by all means, let’s privatize our militias. Let’s make them corporations supported by our taxes, equally shared.
Corporations supported by taxes? How can you have a corporation funded by taxes, accountable to the people, yet somehow not be a state body?

Admittedly, I may have a somewhat base understanding of what is private vs. public (probably a product of business school). But fair enough, for the sake of debate we'll run with your definition of what is Private: an institution collectively funded and controlled by the people.

So where does your definition of Privatization differ substantially from anarcho-communism?
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