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Old 01-21-2007, 02:32 PM
 
Location: Haddington, E. Lothian, Scotland
752 posts, read 594,239 times
Reputation: 175

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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildberries61 View Post
Just how will they decide who's an idiot or not? All we can do is ask that people educate themselves. There are idiots in all walks of life and making deadly choices every day even with out a gun.
Their are anti-gun people who would like the regular citizen to not own a gun. When they have people convinced they are taking the guns away from idiots and people are lined up to put theirs in the pile who will be the idiot.
Everyone agrees criminals and idiots shouldn't own a gun or have one in their possession, but that's what makes them criminals or idiots they find a way.
For one guy when he didn't have anything, he choice a steak knife. Are we going to have restrictions on steak knifes next? What I'm saying if someone whats to kill or commit crime there are more ways then, a gun. There are laws for using a gun people just need to abide by them.
There's no way to know who the idiots are until after they do something stupid. That's why you regulate access to extraordinarily dangerous items, in case idiots get ahold of them.

The comparison between guns & steak knives is a red herring. First, guns are designed for no other purpose than to kill. Steak knives aren't. It takes more effort to kill someone with a steak knife than a gun. And finally, it's much easier to kill someone from a distance with a gun, and therefore it's easier to make an escape without getting caught. So yes, while one can kill with any number of utensils, guns are a special class of utensil because they make the act of killing much easier.

Let's take your argument and spin it another way. You say guns and knives belong to the same class of item, so one should be no more regulated than the other, yes? OK. So let's look at aspirin and morphine. Both are the same class of item, in this case painkillers. Using your reasoning, couldn't you argue that morphine should be sold over the counter because aspirin is too? They're both painkillers after all, right? Shouldn't responsible, upstanding citizens be allowed free access to opiates without the government nosing in their business?
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Old 01-21-2007, 11:22 PM
 
1,330 posts, read 4,537,131 times
Reputation: 476
Quote:
Originally Posted by wildberries61 View Post
Just how will they decide who's an idiot or not?
There are some ways to tell the idiots from the responsible people before they get a firearm, many states require you to go in front of the sherriff or a judge and good luck getting a permit if you look crosseyed. Criminal record, school records showing disruptive behavior, mental health history...they do check into these things in a lot of states.

NRA classes and other state approved classes can teach people how to safely handle a firearm. Many states will not approve a carry permit without such a class. My kids will attend a course while they are teens just so they understand a little about firearms in case fate ever winds them in a situation where they must make a decision - like if a friend has found dad's pistol and is fooling around with it.

A person skilled at shooting can kill many people in a short period of time. I would like to see someone (outside of spec ops) try to take down 6 people with a steak knife. And many states do regulate knives as deadly weapons as well.

What eats my hat is that handguns are seperated from longrifles and shotguns. I'm a better shot with a .22 longrifle than I am with a .40 pistol and you would be just as dead if I shot you with either. Owning either weapon is a responsibility. People tend to get into a frenzy when the word "handgun" is mentioned. It is simply a class of firearm.
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Old 01-22-2007, 12:00 AM
 
919 posts, read 1,668,204 times
Reputation: 478
My point about england and australia was that both started out as registration then went to confiscation. there are thousands of laws pertaining to guns already on the books, make them work. Quick Quiz, what area has the most stringent laws, no guns allowed. and the highest crime rate? WA.DC. I dont want to seem to relay NRA talking points, but they are facts. Let me give you one more example of forward thinkers. after 9-11 the ATF decided to do federal background checks on all who would use and buy commercial explosives. makes you feel safe? except that the ATF's own statistics show that 99% of all bombings are not done with commercial explosives, A BIG waste of time. and your right the germans did go along with gun registration, many of them went along with killing jews too.
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Old 01-22-2007, 01:08 AM
 
Location: Haddington, E. Lothian, Scotland
752 posts, read 594,239 times
Reputation: 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark6052 View Post
My point about england and australia was that both started out as registration then went to confiscation. there are thousands of laws pertaining to guns already on the books, make them work. Quick Quiz, what area has the most stringent laws, no guns allowed. and the highest crime rate? WA.DC. I dont want to seem to relay NRA talking points, but they are facts. Let me give you one more example of forward thinkers. after 9-11 the ATF decided to do federal background checks on all who would use and buy commercial explosives. makes you feel safe? except that the ATF's own statistics show that 99% of all bombings are not done with commercial explosives, A BIG waste of time. and your right the germans did go along with gun registration, many of them went along with killing jews too.
The gun laws in the UK changed after the Dunblane Massacre, not because the government wanted to disarm and control the people. The guy who shot up that school did it with legally held (but untracked) handguns. That event is the critical context with which you have to understand Britain's gun laws.

The fact that most explosives are homemade doesn't mean that the ATF shouldn't track commercial explosives. While it doesn't prevent a home chemist from making a bomb, at least it prevents them from accessing the military grade stuff. But to be honest bombs worry me considerably less than guns, and I think statistically my fears are well placed.

But back to gun laws. The UK and US are different countries and I wouldn't suggest that what works here would work there. In fact I wouldn't even argue that the gun laws work perfectly here either. But what I do say is that _traceability_ is an absolute necessity if you want to balance individual freedom along with public safety.

Tracking ownership of a gun doesn't infringe on anyone's freedom. There are many things that we own and are tracked...yet we let it pass without a second's thought. Your house, your boat, your car, sometimes even your dog, all are traceable. Does this mean Big Brother has his eye on you? Do you believe that the purpose of registering our cars is so that someday the government can come and confiscate them?
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Old 01-22-2007, 09:50 AM
 
1,393 posts, read 870,154 times
Reputation: 462
The argument on stealing a gun. If the gun is in plain view and stolen that's one thing. But, under lock and key and the gun is stolen is that really the owners fault? It's his house he put the guns under lock and key how does that still hold him responsible? I would think most people would report it stolen unless that was the only item taken and the person doesn't use his gun very often still his responsibility, but some people just have it tucked and unless other things were taken the owner might not realize his gun is gone.
Would be like someone hot wiring your car and killing someone are you still responsible? If it happened before you could report it missing.
As far as the knife it's just saying it doesn't matter if you want to commit murder you will do it in any way any how weather a gun or etc. I realize it's easier with a gun, but why should I lose my rights for people who would never think of registering there guns anyways. What about black market how will you register those guns? I haven't looked it up but, more stolen guns are probably black market rather then, taken from a home. With exception of the school killings.
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Old 01-22-2007, 01:58 PM
 
919 posts, read 1,668,204 times
Reputation: 478
Default history

To many times gun registration has led to confiscation, in too many countries. so one person with a registered gun kills some people and the whole country gets there guns confiscated? that makes sense? forget the regs, go get all the illegal stuff from the crooks, quit picking on the law abiding folks. why not regs cars, they kill more people than guns do every year. fact, look it up. maybe we should install breathalizers in all cars, because of afew drunks. and all those people that go out drinking. makes about as much sense.
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Old 01-22-2007, 02:42 PM
 
Location: Haddington, E. Lothian, Scotland
752 posts, read 594,239 times
Reputation: 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark6052 View Post
why not regs cars, they kill more people than guns do every year. fact, look it up.
Erm, we do register cars. Exactly my point. Glad to know you see the sense of it.
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Old 01-22-2007, 03:57 PM
 
Location: Haddington, E. Lothian, Scotland
752 posts, read 594,239 times
Reputation: 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by wildberries61 View Post
The argument on stealing a gun. If the gun is in plain view and stolen that's one thing. But, under lock and key and the gun is stolen is that really the owners fault?
The owner has a liability if a gun is stolen and not reported as such. Saying "I didn't know it was stolen" isn't an excuse. And if that means checking the locks on the gun cabinet every day, then that's what the owner should do.

Gun ownership is a huge responsibility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildberries61 View Post
As far as the knife it's just saying it doesn't matter if you want to commit murder you will do it in any way any how weather a gun or etc. I realize it's easier with a gun, but why should I lose my rights for people who would never think of registering there guns anyways.
There we are again. Who says you're losing your rights by registering your gun? You still get to possess the weapon. Registration provides a mechanism to track the serial numbers of all the firearms that wildberries LEGALLY owns. I hate to keep saying this, but I must: you have a right to vote, yet to exercise it you must register. Please explain how demonstrating your eligibility to vote (citizenship, lack of felony criminal record, age and address) impinges on your rights in any way.


Quote:
Originally Posted by wildberries61 View Post
What about black market how will you register those guns?
You can't. And no registration policy is a 100% effective. But what you would do with registration is reduce the legally acquired guns from being used in crimes. And in fact, I wouldn't even stop with registering the serial numbers. Ultimately the barrel pattern of every weapon should be stored in a national database, like fingerprints. The onus would then fall to the manufacturers to submit the pattern to the government before any gun is sold. That way every new gun entering the market would be traceable to at least one legal owner.

Last edited by FistFightingHairdresser; 01-22-2007 at 04:14 PM..
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Old 01-23-2007, 08:45 PM
 
919 posts, read 1,668,204 times
Reputation: 478
so how affective would registration be, 50%? about 30% of all stolen cars are never recovered and there all registered. the seller of the car is not required to keep track of the buyer, just how complicated do you want it to be? there is already a gun registration now when you buy a gun, the yellow atf form ring a bell. and its accessable to law enforcement. the barrel fingerprint is incorrect, it would be to big to work with, just ask a ballistic expert, I did. what part of registration keeps an honest person say getting mad at there other half for cheating on them, so they shoot them. what part of gun registration keeps a 17yr old from taking his dads, or his own guns, and shootup a school? remember he can legally drive, etc maybe hunts, and knows the combination to the family safe. what? I should never let my son know It. many, many guns have been stolen from the military here in the US. many more stolen from law enforcement. two that I know of in the last two yrs. one left in the suburban overnite by an fbi agent. he first said he left it there so not to alarm his neihbors when he took the gun into the house. funny but they all knew he worked for the fbi. fully auto, and a shot gun, vest, etc, never recovered. so come see my legal registered guns, you wont find the others.
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Old 01-23-2007, 09:00 PM
 
Location: Lake Norman Area
1,431 posts, read 3,572,102 times
Reputation: 1175
"when you outlaw guns, only the outlaws will have guns."
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