Iran Really DOES Have A Case For Nukes (Clinton, lobby, dollar)

[rb4browns]

Originally Posted by tinman01

Rb good over all post and I stand corrected on a few issues.
I do disagree on a few things. Israel did infact treat the people of the land very badly from the begining.

Both sides have treated each other badly. And don't forget, Jews are also "the people of the land" and there has been an unbroken Jewish presence since the Roman expulsion in the 1st centure of the CE.

Originally Posted by tinman01

I understood and I am aware of what the league of nations did with the ottoman empire. That in no small part helped fan the flames for WWII.
But the land was Englands and they did surrender it to the Israeli's after quite a bit of terrorist activity and mass migration. Illegal migration at that.

I'm comfortable when a law is so egregious and so many lives are at stake that it would be immoral to obey such a law. England's laws banning Jewish immigration when everything was goign to hell with the rise of the Nazis are laws which absolutely should have been broken. I'm not sure how much the division of Ottoman lands had to due with fanning the flames of WWII beyond Germany needing the area's oil to support it's military and industrial needs.

Originally Posted by tinman01

I am aware of India and Pakistan they were not relevent to the topic. On this one you split hairs.

It's directly relevant to the context in which Engald surrendered its Mandate.

Originally Posted by tinman01

By leaving voluntarily I guess you could call it that. They were treated very badly. Who would stay if they had no power to fight?

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.

Originally Posted by tinman01

Israels wealth in no small part is due to their savy business sense as well as having (US) for one heck of a sugar daddy... Why does such a wealthy nation need such a generous hand out???

There are strategic reasons for the US to give foreign aid out.

Originally Posted by tinman01

They don't but our elected officials are overly influenced by the jewish lobby who contributes handsomely to both parties.

This is racist, bigoted and just a really stupid thing to say. There is no fixed standard in which any group of people based on any ethnic, religious, ideological category can "overly" or "underly" influence elected officials. The Constitution guarantees all of us (even Jews! ) the right to petition our elected officials. Many groups and individuals make campaign contributions besides Jews.

DId you really mean to go there? Are you really just another Jew-hater? Usually I can pick them out. Your last line here surpised me.

Originally Posted by tinman01

Could it be Iran was not belligerent towards Israel because the Shaw was a bit of a puppet of ours?

Perhaps, but more so because Jews and (non-Jewish) Persians have a long historical record of getting along, and even more so because the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Originally Posted by tinman01

Yes Komeni famed those flames big time . No argument here on that. But at the same time Israel wastes no time threatening Iran. To say otherwise is what is silly. Israel is constantly threatening to fly into Iran and bomb suspected sights. Right or wrong they in fact do make these threats.

Think really hard about what you just wrote. Why does Israel threaten Iran? Only because Iran is the one with the bombastic and belligerent threats and statements. You can't just pull this one out of context. Israel has not gone out to pick a fight with Iran, it's the other way around. Of course Israel is goign to rattle its own sabre when Iran is telling them they will be wiped off the map and BTW we're developing nuclear power. C'mon now.

Originally Posted by tinman01

Israel gets a hard look by the UN because they richly deserve it. Their human rights record is less than desirable. They leveled a city in Lebanon needlessly. They attacked their own allies during their occupation of Lebanon. Nothing new there they also attacked one of our ships and only broke off the attack due to a Russian destroyer answering the distress call. The USS Liberty...

The obvious question is why Israel would knowingly attack the Liberty. The crackpot theories about trying to cover up the fighting on the Golan Heights does not line up chronologically. WHich city in Lebanon got leveled needlessly? The one in which Hezbollah kept their headquarters? Which allies did Israel attack during the first Lebanon war. Again, do you knwo what you are talking about or did you just read somethign on some wingnut website and you are trying to spit back what you read?

Originally Posted by tinman01

As far Iran is a menace I agree. But then ask Israels neighbors how they feel about Israel? No doubt many feel Israel is a bigger menace.

Israel's neighbors refuse to even acknowledge the country's right to exist. At this point after 60 years Israel's neighbors deserve to feel like Israel is a menace. THat's what happens when you pick a fight with the neighbor and then get your a*s kicked for it.

Originally Posted by tinman01

Look I trained with the IDF. I respect their abilities. But I also got to know them. Its not about threat anymore with them. They took delight in humilating people at random just because the could..
Israel by far over kills when they respond.
As I said before I don't want Iran to have nukes. But after training and working with the IDF It will take a lot of change in Israel before I believe they want peace. They want land, and they want to get rid of any Palestinians who are left. Actions speak louder than words. Israels actions are loud and clear.

How did you get to know so many Israelis to make such an assertion? You are just spewing nonsense now. Poor Israel's neighbors. Such a bully they live next to. Israel's neighbors go 60+ years refusing to even recognize the country has a right to exist in the first place, start wars and support terrorist actions, foment hatred of Jews through their media and educational systems, and then have the temerity to point their fingers and say, "it's Israel's fault! It's Israel's fault!"

[tinman01]

Originally Posted by geeoro

Maybe when all the settlers moved out of Palastine and Israel tried to appease the Palastinians only to be rewarded with missile attack after missile attack or suicide bombers, Israel should have said to the PLO "well done, good job you are doing". Israel has the right to defend itself. The palastinians now have the land they sooo frantacally craved and they still can't get their act together. They are the ones who need to move forward and grasp the opportunity they now have to become a nation. Not keep attacking Israel and then cry when Israel defends itself.

Oh my you are the victim of american media. How about Israel didn't leave when they were supposed too? How about Israel bull dozing palestinan homes who were innocent of wrong doing? How about denying permits so folks could go to work even tho it was agreed upon?
Would these things not anger you?
Yes militants have attacked Israel.. No denying that. But Israel does things that only produce those results.

[Mircea]

Originally Posted by rb4browns

Indeed it did not, thus the falacy that a "Palestinian People" existed as a nation in the way which we understand it today. Your "Etymology" is interesting except that it is false. But facts don't seem to be real important here.

You need only look at ancient maps.

Originally Posted by rb4browns

IUm, no it does not. The Romans chose the name as a direct dig and insult to the defeated Jews by renaming the Judea/Samaria region to "Syria Palestina." Where did they get that name? From the Aegian people commonly understoon as the Philistines from the Bible.

Um, no Herodotus made numerous references to "Palaistine" corresponding to the same geographic location in The Histories.

I'll wait for you to argue that the Roman civilization pre-dated the Greek civilization.

Originally Posted by rb4browns

IAgain, no it does not. Perhaps you aren't familiar with history beyond your silly assertions.

I very familiar with history. That Philistines and Palestinians are one in the same is something I learned during a lecture at Hebrew Union University.

[geeoro]

Did you NOT see the settlers being dragged from their homes so that Israel would appeasec the Palastinians.? Have you not witnessed the constant barrage of missiles fired by the Palastinians into Israel? Have you not heard the statements by Iran that they will NOT rest until Israel is wiped off the face of the world.? Did you not see the ceasefire broken by Palastinian attacks? Where do you get your news from Al Jazeera?

[tinman01]

Originally Posted by rb4browns

Both sides have treated each other badly. And don't forget, Jews are also "the people of the land" and there has been an unbroken Jewish presence since the Roman expulsion in the 1st centure of the CE.



I'm comfortable when a law is so egregious and so many lives are at stake that it would be immoral to obey such a law. England's laws banning Jewish immigration when everything was goign to hell with the rise of the Nazis are laws which absolutely should have been broken. I'm not sure how much the division of Ottoman lands had to due with fanning the flames of WWII beyond Germany needing the area's oil to support it's military and industrial needs.



It's directly relevant to the context in which Engald surrendered its Mandate.



I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.



There are strategic reasons for the US to give foreign aid out.



This is racist, bigoted and just a really stupid thing to say. There is no fixed standard in which any group of people based on any ethnic, religious, ideological category can "overly" or "underly" influence elected officials. The Constitution guarantees all of us (even Jews! ) the right to petition our elected officials. Many groups and individuals make campaign contributions besides Jews.

DId you really mean to go there? Are you really just another Jew-hater? Usually I can pick them out. Your last line here surpised me.



Perhaps, but more so because Jews and (non-Jewish) Persians have a long historical record of getting along, and even more so because the enemy of my enemy is my friend.



Think really hard about what you just wrote. Why does Israel threaten Iran? Only because Iran is the one with the bombastic and belligerent threats and statements. You can't just pull this one out of context. Israel has not gone out to pick a fight with Iran, it's the other way around. Of course Israel is goign to rattle its own sabre when Iran is telling them they will be wiped off the map and BTW we're developing nuclear power. C'mon now.



The obvious question is why Israel would knowingly attack the Liberty. The crackpot theories about trying to cover up the fighting on the Golan Heights does not line up chronologically. WHich city in Lebanon got leveled needlessly? The one in which Hezbollah kept their headquarters? Which allies did Israel attack during the first Lebanon war. Again, do you knwo what you are talking about or did you just read somethign on some wingnut website and you are trying to spit back what you read?




Israel's neighbors refuse to even acknowledge the country's right to exist. At this point after 60 years Israel's neighbors deserve to feel like Israel is a menace. THat's what happens when you pick a fight with the neighbor and then get your a*s kicked for it.




How did you get to know so many Israelis to make such an assertion? You are just spewing nonsense now. Poor Israel's neighbors. Such a bully they live next to. Israel's neighbors go 60+ years refusing to even recognize the country has a right to exist in the first place, start wars and support terrorist actions, foment hatred of Jews through their media and educational systems, and then have the temerity to point their fingers and say, "it's Israel's fault! It's Israel's fault!"

No I am not racist towards Jewish people and nothing I have said indicates that I am. The fact is that the jewish lobby is one of the most powerful in DC.
Strategic reasons for aid? Yes to a point. But at what point does the price tag become to high>
USS Liberty. Sorry I trust the words and accounts of those who were on board. Israel claimed that they thought the USS Liberty was an Egyption trawler. Fact is it was flying the american flagged and looked nothing like an Egyption Trawler. By the which account that Israel gave to you refer to? The one where the Lyberty was doing 28 knots and not flying a flag?
The one where they say the Liberty never IDentified itself?
The Liberty was an old ship. On its best day 25knots may have been possible but never to cruise at such a speed.
The USS Liberty did infact identify itself many times. The Israeli's refused to break off the attack. Many listening posts throughout the med heard the transmitions including our embassy in Beirut and the Russian destroyer.. We had 2 carrier battle groups in the med. Both were ordered to stand down. LBJ said" I don't care if every sailor on that ship drowns we will not attack Israel".
Fact the war between Israel and Egypt was over so even that excuse is thin.
The allies they attacked in lebanon during the occupation were the Christian arabs who supported Israel.
One

[rb4browns]

Originally Posted by Mircea

You need only look at ancient maps.



Um, no Herodotus made numerous references to "Palaistine" corresponding to the same geographic location in The Histories.

I'll wait for you to argue that the Roman civilization pre-dated the Greek civilization.



I very familiar with history. That Philistines and Palestinians are one in the same is something I learned during a lecture at Hebrew Union University.

LOL, hard to argue with the depth of knowledge you must possess after a "lecture at Hebrew Union University." Herodotus made numerous references to the Philistines, yes. There is no connection through between the people now known as "Palestinians" and the Philistines of the ancient world.

But what do I know? I never got to go to a lecture at "Hebrew Union University."

[rb4browns]

Originally Posted by tinman01

Oh my you are the victim of american media. How about Israel didn't leave when they were supposed too? How about Israel bull dozing palestinan homes who were innocent of wrong doing? How about denying permits so folks could go to work even tho it was agreed upon?
Would these things not anger you?
Yes militants have attacked Israel.. No denying that. But Israel does things that only produce those results.

And the woman who got raped deserved it for wearing that sexy dress....

[tinman01]

Originally Posted by geeoro

Did you NOT see the settlers being dragged from their homes so that Israel would appeasec the Palastinians.? Have you not witnessed the constant barrage of missiles fired by the Palastinians into Israel? Have you not heard the statements by Iran that they will NOT rest until Israel is wiped off the face of the world.? Did you not see the ceasefire broken by Palastinian attacks? Where do you get your news from Al Jazeera?

Yes heard and seen what the media wanted us to see. But then why does Israel rebuild on lands they signed away?
Did you not see homes of palestinians being bulldozed?
Did you not see Israeli gunships fireing hellfire missiles into homes regardless of the collatoral damage?
Did you not see IDF troops beating Palestinians not because they did anything wrong but because they were palestinians?
Watch some BBC to get your news.
Or better still take a trip over there and see for yourself.

[tinman01]

Originally Posted by rb4browns

And the woman who got raped deserved it for wearing that sexy dress....

Did I say this? Did I infer this? NO But you bring it up. What about when Israeli troops do what you mentioned? What about when they jail folks for the crime of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Like when they do a sweep?
Never said Isarel is all wrong and the arabs are all correct. I am saying Isarel creates a great deal of what comes there way.

[saganista]

Originally Posted by rb4browns

Nobody is trying to paint Israel as "goody goody guys."

Hmmm. What differences are there in the chances that your death will be reported in the New York Times (and other US media) if you are a Palestinian killed by an Israeli, or if you are an Israeli killed by a Palestinian?

Originally Posted by rb4browns

We're just pointing out that Iran is clearly a menace and Israel is not.

Iran is not a menace in many minds beyond those that take the words Muslim and Islamo-facsist to be interchangeable. Israel has often been a menace, as has the US. These menacing interludes tend to happen in the respective countries under similar circumstances: when right-wingers and hard-liners hold the reins of power.