Iran Really DOES Have A Case For Nukes (Baghdad, lobbyist, 9/11)

[rb4browns]

Originally Posted by saganista

I used the NY Times as a representative of a US media that for whatever reasons has provided for decades a woefully one-sided view of the conflict...this in response to a claim that no one was trying to paint the Israelis as goody-goodies. Despite all the missiles and suicide bombings that we in the US can expect to hear about in considerable detail, the background kill-ratios actually favor Israel by factors of four and five to one. These ratios rise any time the conflict happens to "heat up". If one were to consider only the deaths of children, the ratios are considerably higher. The ratio of property destroyed is all but off the charts. This has indeed been a very one-sided confrontation, and the Palestinians et al have consistently been given the worst of it, often enough as the result of Israeli policies and operations that would have been well enough described by the word "brutal' in their design and implementation. Simply put, those who would like to see an end to this conflict have had few enough friends on either side, and far too few on the Israeli side.

The current administration essentially walked away from this situation with its leash-cutting "do what you have to do" policy shortly after taking office. Given any circumstances at all, this would have been an example of poor policy. Given the ones in actual existence at the time, this was a long way beyond poor. The next administration will have its work cut out for it. Our ability at all to represent ourselves as an honest broker has been all but destroyed. It will be some time before we can again claim any credibility or assert any meaningful influence in these matters. More lives will be lost as the result.

You call the NY Times one sided as if there is only 2 sides to any story. It's the Times' job to report on news of interest to its readers. Again, more Americans feel a social/religious connection to the Israelis, so what happens to the Israelis gets the press.

As far as the one sidedness of the casualites etcetera. Ya, big bad Israel, how dare they not lose a military conflict. Why, they should let more of their own women and children die to people like you will think things are "fair."

Intifada is an Arabic word. Here's a thought - how about not starting a military conflict with the neighbor when the neighbor can kick you a*s?

Stupid is as stupid does. That's the story of the Palestinians for the past 60 years. Don't blame Israel for that.

[rb4browns]

Originally Posted by bily4

I am with you shipmate.

Hey all you Fundie Israel Lovers - put your money where your mouth is when you say you support our troops.

That 3 Billion we give the Israelis would be well spent in our own War on Terror supporting our miltary and veterans protecting your asses.

The Israelis sure as hell are not out there with us.

Ahh, once again, for the mathematically challenged like this poster - The US Federal Government has a budget well over a Trillion dollars. Israel gets $3 billion. That leaves, well, over a Trillion dollars left to go to the War on Terror and our troops. IN other words, what we give to Israel or any other country has zero affect on how much our military gets.

But why let actual thought get in the way of your rants?

[rb4browns]

Originally Posted by bily4

Oh, now it is an "American" War Effort?

I thought Israel would be leaping on joining us in the Global War on Terror.


Guess they are too busy with the Palestinians.

Israel has given the US a tremendous amount of assistance in the form of training and technology they have developed in their fight against Palestinian terrorism.

Oh darn, there I go with facts again. My bad!

[rb4browns]

Originally Posted by tinman01

WOW you argue that the billons we have given them would not be better spent on our own troops???????????????
Screw that. Our guys are dieing not theirs.
I have been to gaza and the west bank and in the field with the IDF have you? Have you had to dodge bullets? I have.
For any secrets they have shared with us we have bought and paid for many times over. For the secrets they have stolen from us and sold often to those we call enemy alone we should abandon them.
Israel our ally indeed. Akula class attack submarine in no small part is a direct result of Israels theft and sale of secrets to the former USSR.

Once again <yawn>, the money given to Israel is not money that otherwise would go to our troops. There is over a Trillion dollars left in the budget for that. This is not a difficult concept to grasp. I need you to focus here.

BTW, I think you are full of sh*t that you have been in the field in Gaza and the West Bank with the IDF. Name the Israeli divisions/battalions you were with.

[tinman01]

Originally Posted by rb4browns

Once again <yawn>, the money given to Israel is not money that otherwise would go to our troops. There is over a Trillion dollars left in the budget for that. This is not a difficult concept to grasp. I need you to focus here.

BTW, I think you are full of sh*t that you have been in the field in Gaza and the West Bank with the IDF. Name the Israeli divisions/battalions you were with.

How about you name them. I know where I have been and don't need to justify it to you.
By the way use your own brain. Trillions are not spent on the the military. Trillions would be the entire budget.
I am saying that Israel does not rate our loyalty as theirs is questionable at best.
I don't believe the Palestinians are innocent of all wrong doing and never said that they were. I did say that Israels over the top heavy handed tactics do as much to promote terrorism as it does to stop it.
You have claimed that bulldozing homes is acceptable because the owners allow terrorists to hide there? What if the terrorist holds a gun to your childs head? Human shield mentality.
Look I hate terrorists as much as anyone if not more. Unlike many I have had my own go arounds with them and that was when they were supposed to be on our side. Yeah back in the 80's. Afghanistan.
The terrorist mind is repulsive to say the least. But if we lower ourselves to their standards how to we claim the moral high ground?
Back on topic:
Iran having nukes. Scarey and dangerous for everyone not just their enemies. A nuke det will poison a large area and fall out will carry a great distance. Iran has shown itself to be more than willing to supply any terror cell whose agenda matches their own.
As for Israel and Iran? Let them duke it out if thats the path they chose. Israel will kick but just as we did in both gulf wars due to a huge technology advantage. Israel can't invade because of logistics and not enough man power. Iran can't invade Israel due to the logistics also.

[tinman01]

Originally Posted by rb4browns

The Captain of the Liberty had no access to the communications between the Israeli planes and their commanders. How would he know what the Israelis saw or thought they saw? AMerican transcripts of the actual conversations of the Israeli pilots picked up by our spies detail how the pilots were confused as to who they attacked. But hey, lots more fun to believe it's all a Jewish/Zionist conspiracy.

The Liberty was not a war ship btw, it was a spy ship.

And if the Israelis were immune to the fog of war which afflicts every other fighting force, was the Israeli aerial attack on one of its own infantry columns part of the conspiracy too?

Damn I wish I was wearing the same tin foil hat as you. I think the black UN helicopters are reading my brain waves now.

That spy ship is classified as an auxilery just like a tender. So they didn't know who they were attacking but attacked anyway? The hull number wasn't checked? A ship with no offensive capability couldn't wait a few minutes for verification?
The Israeli's also claimed that no attempt by the Liberty was made to ID itself. That is a lie in itself.
They also claimed that it wasn't flying our flag. Yet another lie.
Originally they claimed it was steaming at 28 knots. That ship was never able to sustain 28 knots.
Admiral moore is also a nut right? Better and easier to believe the Israeli's over our own head of intellegence at the time and his second in command. better to believe a foreign power over the eye witnesses on board the ship. Uhm the victims. They have changed their story over and over why?
The helo's sent to inspect the damage according to the radio transcripts positively ID the ship and that it was flying an american flag.
Sorry I am no conspiracy fan, never have been but this is a case of an over eager attack. It happens. Its how you deal with it that matters. Israel has done a very poor job of that. No I don't believe they said hey lets attack an american ship and make it look like egypt did it. I believe they jumped the gun and then spent over 2 decades trying to cover their blunder.

[rb4browns]

Originally Posted by tinman01

How about you name them. I know where I have been and don't need to justify it to you.

So in other words, you're lying. Ok.

Originally Posted by tinman01

By the way use your own brain. Trillions are not spent on the the military. Trillions would be the entire budget.

Um, yeah, that's actually what I was saying when I said that the Federal Government's budget is over a Trillion dollars, and out of that only 3 Billion goes ot Israel. Thus, lots left over to give to the US military without factoring the money we give for foreign aid. Neat concept huh?

Originally Posted by tinman01

I am saying that Israel does not rate our loyalty as theirs is questionable at best.

OK fair enough, you are entitled to your opinion.

Originally Posted by tinman01

I don't believe the Palestinians are innocent of all wrong doing and never said that they were. I did say that Israels over the top heavy handed tactics do as much to promote terrorism as it does to stop it.

It's a silly argument that the terrorism would stop if Israel just didn't work quite so hard to defend itself.

Originally Posted by tinman01

You have claimed that bulldozing homes is acceptable because the owners allow terrorists to hide there?

Yes.

Originally Posted by tinman01

What if the terrorist holds a gun to your childs head? Human shield mentality.

That's what snipers are for.

Originally Posted by tinman01

Look I hate terrorists as much as anyone if not more. Unlike many I have had my own go arounds with them and that was when they were supposed to be on our side. Yeah back in the 80's. Afghanistan.
The terrorist mind is repulsive to say the least. But if we lower ourselves to their standards how to we claim the moral high ground?

When the only other option is to be buried in the ground the choice becomes real clear.

[rb4browns]

Originally Posted by tinman01

That spy ship is classified as an auxilery just like a tender. So they didn't know who they were attacking but attacked anyway? The hull number wasn't checked? A ship with no offensive capability couldn't wait a few minutes for verification?
The Israeli's also claimed that no attempt by the Liberty was made to ID itself. That is a lie in itself.
They also claimed that it wasn't flying our flag. Yet another lie.
Originally they claimed it was steaming at 28 knots. That ship was never able to sustain 28 knots.
Admiral moore is also a nut right? Better and easier to believe the Israeli's over our own head of intellegence at the time and his second in command. better to believe a foreign power over the eye witnesses on board the ship. Uhm the victims. They have changed their story over and over why?
The helo's sent to inspect the damage according to the radio transcripts positively ID the ship and that it was flying an american flag.
Sorry I am no conspiracy fan, never have been but this is a case of an over eager attack. It happens. Its how you deal with it that matters. Israel has done a very poor job of that. No I don't believe they said hey lets attack an american ship and make it look like egypt did it. I believe they jumped the gun and then spent over 2 decades trying to cover their blunder.

Yes, you are correct. It was an overeager attack. It was a stupid, tragic blunder in the fog of war, not an intentional attack on a ship the Israeli fighter pilots knew was American. Thank you for agreeing with me.

[tinman01]

Originally Posted by rb4browns

Yes, you are correct. It was an overeager attack. It was a stupid, tragic blunder in the fog of war, not an intentional attack on a ship the Israeli fighter pilots knew was American. Thank you for agreeing with me.

I agree that it was an over eager attack. I disagree that Israel even attempted to stand up for what they did and still don't. I also say that our own gov has assisted them in trying to cover it up.
The whole point is Israel tends to get a whole lot of walks that they really don't deserve.

[tinman01]

Originally Posted by rb4browns

So in other words, you're lying. Ok.



Um, yeah, that's actually what I was saying when I said that the Federal Government's budget is over a Trillion dollars, and out of that only 3 Billion goes ot Israel. Thus, lots left over to give to the US military without factoring the money we give for foreign aid. Neat concept huh?



OK fair enough, you are entitled to your opinion.



It's a silly argument that the terrorism would stop if Israel just didn't work quite so hard to defend itself.



Yes.



That's what snipers are for.



When the only other option is to be buried in the ground the choice becomes real clear.

Lying? No I just don't need to justify my Career to you. If we ever meet which is doubtful I can show you a few pics and some awards. Did you ever serve? I ask with respect. I grow weary of everyone wanting to know if I were ever shot, show me the scars, did you ever shoot anyone etc. Worse still when its someone who has never served requesting that I prove my service. I served with honor and pride. That should be enough of an answer for any vet. Non-vets quite simply didn't earn the right to question the service of a vet.
The fed budget: Come on now. The military gets its share and not a penny more. Its understood. Its also understood that foreign aid is handed out not based on need or even because its a nice thing to do. Its handed out because lobbiest's whisper in the right ears and arms are twisted and thats dc politics. Foreign aid is an issue. How can we afford it when we are spending more than we have? Its not just the aid to Israel I question. I question all of it.
Terrorism would stop if Israel? NO you will have the idiots. What Israel does is help create a recruiters dream come true. By lashing out at people at random it makes the case for the terrorist recruiters.If Israel instead retaliated in a more controled precise way limiteding civilian casualties it would lesson the hostilities of the average Palestinian.
Not so different than the IRA and England. Think back to the 60's and 70's. We more or less turned a blind eye to a lot of the funds crossing the Atlantic to support the IRA. This did in fact cause some tension between England and the USA.
Snipers. Thank you you make my point. Use snipers instead of hellfire missiles and bulldozers.
Is your neighbor a sniper? Mine are not. So if you or I were held at gunpoint after someone launched a mortor attack it would be acceptable to blow mine or your house up and your neighbors to kill a few suspected bad guys? I think not.
Buried in the ground?
They enjoy something pretty much no one else in the world does. A blank check of support from the most powerful nation on earth. They have more than 1 option. They have chosen to disregard many because it would mean giving up the land they already were supposed too.