Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 07-30-2008, 08:53 AM
 
10,545 posts, read 13,585,253 times
Reputation: 2823

Advertisements

No smoking hot spot | The Australian

[/quote]David Evans | July 18, 2008
"I DEVOTED six years to carbon accounting, building models for the Australian Greenhouse Office. I am the rocket scientist who wrote the carbon accounting model (FullCAM) that measures Australia's compliance with the Kyoto Protocol, in the land use change and forestry sector."[/quote]


[/quote]"When I started that job in 1999 the evidence that carbon emissions caused global warming seemed pretty good: CO2 is a greenhouse gas, the old ice core data, no other suspects."[/quote]


[/quote]"But since 1999 new evidence has seriously weakened the case that carbon emissions are the main cause of global warming, and by 2007 the evidence was pretty conclusive that carbon played only a minor role and was not the main cause of the recent global warming. As Lord Keynes famously said, "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?"


There has not been a public debate about the causes of global warming and most of the public and our decision makers are not aware of the most basic salient facts:
1. The greenhouse signature is missing. We have been looking and measuring for years, and cannot find it.
Each possible cause of global warming has a different pattern of where in the planet the warming occurs first and the most. The signature of an increased greenhouse effect is a hot spot about 10km up in the atmosphere over the tropics. We have been measuring the atmosphere for decades using radiosondes: weather balloons with thermometers that radio back the temperature as the balloon ascends through the atmosphere. They show no hot spot. Whatsoever.
If there is no hot spot then an increased greenhouse effect is not the cause of global warming. So we know for sure that carbon emissions are not a significant cause of the global warming. If we had found the greenhouse signature then I would be an alarmist again.
When the signature was found to be missing in 2007 (after the latest IPCC report), alarmists objected that maybe the readings of the radiosonde thermometers might not be accurate and maybe the hot spot was there but had gone undetected. Yet hundreds of radiosondes have given the same answer, so statistically it is not possible that they missed the hot spot.
Recently the alarmists have suggested we ignore the radiosonde thermometers, but instead take the radiosonde wind measurements, apply a theory about wind shear, and run the results through their computers to estimate the temperatures. They then say that the results show that we cannot rule out the presence of a hot spot. If you believe that you'd believe anything.
2. There is no evidence to support the idea that carbon emissions cause significant global warming. None. There is plenty of evidence that global warming has occurred, and theory suggests that carbon emissions should raise temperatures (though by how much is hotly disputed) but there are no observations by anyone that implicate carbon emissions as a significant cause of the recent global warming.
3. The satellites that measure the world's temperature all say that the warming trend ended in 2001, and that the temperature has dropped about 0.6C in the past year (to the temperature of 1980). Land-based temperature readings are corrupted by the "urban heat island" effect: urban areas encroaching on thermometer stations warm the micro-climate around the thermometer, due to vegetation changes, concrete, cars, houses. Satellite data is the only temperature data we can trust, but it only goes back to 1979. NASA reports only land-based data, and reports a modest warming trend and recent cooling. The other three global temperature records use a mix of satellite and land measurements, or satellite only, and they all show no warming since 2001 and a recent cooling.
4. The new ice cores show that in the past six global warmings over the past half a million years, the temperature rises occurred on average 800 years before the accompanying rise in atmospheric carbon. Which says something important about which was cause and which was effect.
None of these points are controversial. The alarmist scientists agree with them, though they would dispute their relevance.
The last point was known and past dispute by 2003, yet Al Gore made his movie in 2005 and presented the ice cores as the sole reason for believing that carbon emissions cause global warming. In any other political context our cynical and experienced press corps would surely have called this dishonest and widely questioned the politician's assertion."[/quote]


[/quote]"So far that debate has just consisted of a simple sleight of hand: show evidence of global warming, and while the audience is stunned at the implications, simply assert that it is due to carbon emissions.
In the minds of the audience, the evidence that global warming has occurred becomes conflated with the alleged cause, and the audience hasn't noticed that the cause was merely asserted, not proved.
If there really was any evidence that carbon emissions caused global warming, don't you think we would have heard all about it ad nauseam by now?
The world has spent $50 billion on global warming since 1990, and we have not found any actual evidence that carbon emissions cause global warming. Evidence consists of observations made by someone at some time that supports the idea that carbon emissions cause global warming. Computer models and theoretical calculations are not evidence, they are just theory.
What is going to happen over the next decade as global temperatures continue not to rise? The Labor Government is about to deliberately wreck the economy in order to reduce carbon emissions. "[/quote]

[/quote]Dr David Evans was a consultant to the Australian Greenhouse Office from 1999 to 2005.[/quote]
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 07-30-2008, 09:07 AM
 
13,053 posts, read 12,951,643 times
Reputation: 2618
If the data continues to diverge from the "predictions", then there will be a lot of choices to be made by people. They can choose to cling to their "belief" or they can act like those of science and go where the data takes them.

Those who will cling will only show why their research was making those conclusions in the first place. That is, they were using their own bias as a conditioning factor to the conclusion. Time will tell.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-30-2008, 09:29 AM
 
Location: Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania USA
2,308 posts, read 2,587,363 times
Reputation: 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomander View Post
If the data continues to diverge from the "predictions", then there will be a lot of choices to be made by people. They can choose to cling to their "belief" or they can act like those of science and go where the data takes them.

Those who will cling will only show why their research was making those conclusions in the first place. That is, they were using their own bias as a conditioning factor to the conclusion. Time will tell.
It would appear that the global warming balloon is beginning to run out of hot air, or greenhouse gasses, take your choice! While it is true that industrial gasses add to the greenhouse effect on the planet, by no means does it mean that these gasses are to solely to blame for the "perceived" warming of the planet. China and India suffer from particulate pollution due to the amount of coal that is burned and the aging vehicles that spew particulates into the air, pollution in these two countries comes from particulate matter, not greenhouse gasses. The Chinese are "holding their breath" the the Olympics don't become a PR nightmare because of particulate pollution at the games. Clean up the air, and clean up the particulate pollution, not just "greenhouse" gasses which are far less important than particulate pollution.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-30-2008, 10:40 AM
 
Location: Near Manito
20,169 posts, read 24,330,946 times
Reputation: 15291
Al Gore is the Jerry Falwell of the Environmental Religion.

Reason Magazine - Al Gore's Curiously Cost-Free Plan to Re-Power America
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-30-2008, 11:04 AM
 
13,053 posts, read 12,951,643 times
Reputation: 2618
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf View Post
Al Gore is the Jerry Falwell of the Environmental Religion.

Reason Magazine - Al Gore's Curiously Cost-Free Plan to Re-Power America
What I find funny about Gore and his loonytics is that he owns a carbon credit company and pays that company to gain credits.

Not only that, but there is no standard as to how a persons effect is established. That is, there is no real science behind them establishing how much you should pay. Also, there are no standards or requirements as to where that money goes after you pay it.

The whole thing is built for the completely stupid. People are worried about the planet, heck I am worried about the intelligent survival of the human race as we get dumber over the years, not smarter.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-30-2008, 11:18 AM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
41,479 posts, read 59,783,759 times
Reputation: 24863
One dissenting scientist does not disprove a theory just and one scientist's observations do not prove it.
I suggest the economic changes required to reduce our Carbon Dioxide production are sensible and will result in an economy that now longer requires the importation of foreign oil or the pollution of domestic coal. Just making the investments to develop a carbon free economy will rescue us from the depression we are headed into under the current system. Restructuring our economy into carbon free one is a good idea even if there is no effect on the global warming.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-30-2008, 11:22 AM
 
Location: Near Manito
20,169 posts, read 24,330,946 times
Reputation: 15291
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW View Post
One dissenting scientist does not disprove a theory just and one scientist's observations do not prove it.
I suggest the economic changes required to reduce our Carbon Dioxide production are sensible and will result in an economy that now longer requires the importation of foreign oil or the pollution of domestic coal. Just making the investments to develop a carbon free economy will rescue us from the depression we are headed into under the current system. Restructuring our economy into carbon free one is a good idea even if there is no effect on the global warming.
So is instituting mandatory school prayer.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-30-2008, 11:25 AM
 
13,053 posts, read 12,951,643 times
Reputation: 2618
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW View Post
One dissenting scientist does not disprove a theory just and one scientist's observations do not prove it.
I suggest the economic changes required to reduce our Carbon Dioxide production are sensible and will result in an economy that now longer requires the importation of foreign oil or the pollution of domestic coal. Just making the investments to develop a carbon free economy will rescue us from the depression we are headed into under the current system. Restructuring our economy into carbon free one is a good idea even if there is no effect on the global warming.
It is not just one, but many. And they are not disproving the theory because it is not a theory, but a hypothesis that uses a lot of guessing to conclude. I would show you "peer reviewed" and accepted research as well as actual observational data compared to the predictions made by these scientist you so worship, but then you have already ignored much of it that has been posted.

In time, your "claims" will find their place. That is, your position can't hold in the face of recorded observational data. The proof will be in the pudding so to speak and it appears so far that you will be eating a big helping of it. Enjoy!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-30-2008, 11:25 AM
 
10,545 posts, read 13,585,253 times
Reputation: 2823
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW View Post
I suggest the economic changes required to reduce our Carbon Dioxide production are sensible and will result in an economy that now longer requires the importation of foreign oil or the pollution of domestic coal. Just making the investments to develop a carbon free economy will rescue us from the depression we are headed into under the current system. Restructuring our economy into carbon free one is a good idea even if there is no effect on the global warming.[/font][/color]
I agree with you on this. To me, that and the simple fact that the air is dirty is a reason to attend to this. I think the global warming converstion is a distraction. I want clean air and water and want to be energy-independent. It has become big business though.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-30-2008, 11:30 AM
 
13,053 posts, read 12,951,643 times
Reputation: 2618
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rggr View Post
I agree with you on this. To me, that and the simple fact that the air is dirty is a reason to attend to this. I think the global warming converstion is a distraction. I want clean air and water and want to be energy-independent. It has become big business though.

I agree with reasonable steps to a cleaner environment, but... can you honestly say that any of these proposals have been reasonable? Have you read the carbon credit programs purposed for both personal and business? Are the demands for state infrastructure changes reasonable? Has anything the groups have been pushing been reasonable? Do they need to proclaim world doom to sell reasonable? Or do they need to scare the heck out of people to get them to accept it?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:14 PM.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top