CNN Reveals its hate for Jews & Israel and its Love for the Paestinians!! (enemy, independent)
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Maybe. Except one of the Palestinians' own making. Here's a wacky thought, how about when Israel unlocks the gate, no Palestinians walk in to Israel and blow themselves up.
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Originally Posted by saganista
Your house becomes "disputed territory" if I decide to fly in and claim that it belongs to me. Do the Israelis have a better claim to the West Bank than that?
Other than a 2000+ year connection to the land. Oh, and how about that the land actually belonged to Jordan before the Six Day War, the entity now known as the Palestinians has no more claim to it then do the Jews.
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Originally Posted by saganista
The vagaries of ancient and colonial rule and remote administration are excuses more than facts within the current context,
There are no vagaries here. There is a clear, very easy to understand historical record of who has controlled the land for centuries since the Jews were expelled by the Romans in the First Century. If facts have now become excuses in your book, so be it.
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Originally Posted by saganista
but given what appears to be a determined propensity to devolve all rights within the region onto Israelis and none at all onto Palestinians, I can understand such otherwise purposeless resort to them.
I would love to see the Palestinians stop with their drive to fight Israel and get on with their lives.
Sure, that's right. Israelis have nothing to fear from Hamas. Ok. You seem to carefully ignore my point, which is that the chaos in Gaza is a direct result of choosing Hamas as their leadership. Your lame nazi analogies are meaningless, The Jews were not on an organized campaign to destroy Germany. But facts just really aren't all that important, are they?
Man! Browns, talking about other people being, white trash, Nazis, Paranoid? This seems to be your theme with any intelligent people who question America's alliance with Israel. If you can't beat them, call them a Nazi or any other Name to demean or discredit them.
I, myself, have no affiliation with any "hate" organization out here, or in the "real" world. I, like some other Americans, investigate where "MY" money goes. And to this day, have not had one, not 1, legitimate, intelligent answer to why the U.S. sends Billions of "MY" tax dollars to this country. Add on top of it the annihilation and persecution of the poor Palestinian people, the stealing of their land, and a U.S. media that doesn't report on what's happening to these people. Leaving Millions of Americans in the dark on the real truth. Now why is that?
As long as I'm a taxpayer, I have that right to question any and all of the U.S.'s decisions, including foreign aid. I do not support Israel, don't care about them, except-their horrible atrocities towards the Palestinians. If all Americans knew the truth, the Aid would stop to the Israelis, and go to the Palestinians, which to me, would be well spent.
Oh by the way I agree with the other poster, I could fill this thread with 100 pages of dead Palestinians at the hands of Israelis.
So let's see paranoid, Nazi, kkk member, white trash, did I forget any? Any new ones? 'Cause that's all you got...
The same would be said I'm sure by proponent's of the sun's rising in the west. Until Bush's utter disinterest in it came along, US policy had been to seek to act as an honest broker in the region for decades. The people who developed policy said it. The people who implemented policy said it. The people who analyzed policy said it. And then there's you arrayed in all your glory in the face of all of these.
Are you daft? Advancing toward a workable peace in the region is against exactly whose best interests?
Can you not make a case without resorting to a personal attack? DO you have hemmoroids? Bad hair day? I never said anything about not advancing a workable peace. That would be a wonderful thing, except unless you define "workable peace" as Israel vanishing in to thin air, there is no peace partner to work with. There cannot be a peace process when one party wants the other dead. Is that really such a difficult concept to grasp?
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Originally Posted by saganista
A simple statement of the historical fact that "Each side has quite clearly offered offense to the other in spades" goes no further than being a simple statement of historical fact. It is unfortunate that some have accumulated so much bias that they will rise to object when the Israelis and Palestinians are equated in any way at all. Even in terms of their shared basic humanity, one comes to suspect.
On a human level it's a terrible situation. That does not remove the fact that wht the Palestinians are experiencing now is a direct result of the choices they have made. You can make the argument of, "what would you expect them to do other than fight," which I can accept. But you cannot seperate that when a nation chooses to go war and then suffers terribly at the hands of the power they decided to fight, they have to accept that those are the potential consequences of fighting. It is innacruate to say that the Palestinians have no other choice in 2008 then to continue to agitate for the destruction of Israel. As long as they choose to fight, they bear the ultimate responsibility for their suffering.
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Originally Posted by saganista
It has been Israeli policy to place settlements upon all the best mountaintops and around all the best water sources in the West Bank, then to build settlement-serving roadways that disrupt Palestinian commerce, digging up any Palestinian farm and bulldozing any Palestinian building that happens to stand in the way in the process. Such acts are deliberately provocative, as if being politically and morally unjustifiable were not enough reason to condemn them.
Such acts are what any sane country does when it is at war. See my post above.
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Originally Posted by saganista
Sounds like your claiming that the Israelis negotiated in bad faith then and have every intention of continuing to do so today. This doesn't speak very well of them. Neither does it advance your claim that Carter "sold out" the Palestinians.
No, this is about the Egyptians remember? Sadat went in talking a good game about Arab solidarity and Palestinian liberation, and as soon as he got what he really wanted (Sinai) he cut a deal and ran. That Carter allowed this is just an example refuting your claim that every President has done so much for peace between Israel and the Palestinians except GW Bush.
Oh, and for his trouble Sadat got Egypt kicked out of the peace loving Arab League for ten years and was assinated for his troubles. But darn, there are those facts that you like to call "excuses" again.
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Originally Posted by saganista
It might be interesting to note that the so-called "Road Map" that Bush has done essentially nothing to pursue comprises little more than the principles of the Carter-era Camp David Accords with some overlays and updates taken from the Clinton-era Oslo Accords et seq. Contributions from anyone named Reagan or Bush are notable only in their absence. It is these who have acted to sell out the Palestinians, as well as all others who have had any interest in peace in the region.
So in your mind it all boils down to, "there would be peace if only Reagan and the Bush's weren't presidents?" Vapid and utterly meaningless. Bye bye.
haha you managed to butcher that one as well. You do realize that a run-on sentence means right? obviously not...go back to school kiddo
I'll do that right now in the role of Teacher. A run-on sentence is one that includes two or more independent clauses while lacking a conjunction and/or appropriate punctuational splicing.
This is a run-on sentence... It was hot today since I didn't go outside I didn't care.
This is not... It was hot today, but since I didn't go outside, I didn't care.
Maybe. Except one of the Palestinians' own making.
The Palestinians aren't making anything, including an even minimal standard of living. Collective punishment is a war crime. Collective punishment is that inflicted upon a general population for the crimes of specific individuals within it whom you have not been able to identify. Israel engages in collective punishment as a matter of national policy.
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Originally Posted by rb4browns
Here's a wacky thought, how about when Israel unlocks the gate, no Palestinians walk in to Israel and blow themselves up.
Here's an even whackier thought. How about Israel halts its regular conduct of the sort of murderous and other brutally destructive initiatives that drive impoverished people to such levels of desperation that they would actually consider walking someplace and blowing themselves up. What level of abuse would it take for you to consider becoming a suicide bomber? How different from you do you think Palestinians are?
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Originally Posted by rb4browns
Other than a 2000+ year connection to the land.
Connection??? According to a history written in the 18th century by one of my ancestors, my family has a many-centuries old connection to a particular valley in the southwest of Britain. Does this give me the right to show up with tanks, driving the people living there now from their homes and taking the place over for myself? Would it make a difference if I had a letter from the government of Mexico saying that it was okay for me to do that?
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Originally Posted by rb4browns
Oh, and how about that the land actually belonged to Jordan before the Six Day War...
Did you mean "belonged to" or "was captured during the 1948 war by"? It's rather remarkable how the use of force to acquire control over land is fairly extolled when it is engaged in by Group-A and utterly decried if it is engaged in by Group-B.
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Originally Posted by rb4browns
...the entity now known as the Palestinians has no more claim to it then do the Jews.
People now known as Palestinians had merely been living on the land for generations. If one assumes that these people have no rights in any case, then they indeed have no more claim to the land than Israel.
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Originally Posted by rb4browns
There are no vagaries here. There is a clear, very easy to understand historical record of who has controlled the land for centuries since the Jews were expelled by the Romans in the First Century. If facts have now become excuses in your book, so be it.
The word vagaries refers to haphazard changes. It does not go to vagueness. Administrative control of the land, often decided as the result of political trade-offs made by colonial and military powers located thousands of miles away, does not go to the issue of local land ownership or entitlement.
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Originally Posted by rb4browns
I would love to see the Palestinians stop with their drive to fight Israel and get on with their lives.
It is difficult simply to get on with one's life when one's home or business is being bulldozed, or when one's children are being mowed down by a helicopter gunship while playing soccer in a neighborhood field. Neither is it easy if supplies of essentials such as food, water, fuel, electrical power, and even something so simple as stocks of currency, are under the complete control of a foreign power that feels fully justified in cutting off the supply of those essentials whenever it happens to feel like it.
Your ignorance is shocking. Little technology??? Think again. First of all, they receive billions of dollars in U.S. aid. They have one of the most advanced militaries out there. They nuclear weapons for gods sake! And they use their military might to oppression, murder, and occupy the Palestinian territory. Palestinians have no access to the outside world, They are trapped in their own land. Israel has control over the roads, infrasructure and food and water supplies. Its absolutely horrific. They drop bombs all the time on "suspected enemie" which usually end of being innocent civillians woman, and children. TEN TIMES AS MANY PALESTINIANS DIE than israelis. Israeli is committing atrocities every day. They fire machine guns blindly into crowds and buildings. They bulldoze Palestinian homes every day further encroaching upon their territory. Can you blame Palestinians for using suicide bombs as a means to an end? They have nothing else? They are dirt poor, have no hope for the future, and they live in a hell hole full of death, disease, and despair. I've been to Gaza, West Bank, Iraeli, Jordan, Egypt, pretty much every country in the middle east so I am speaking from personal experience and eye witness account to the brutality being purpotrated upon the Palestinians. Its heartbreaking. And its deeply depressing that most of America has no clue what is going on there. There is hardly ever any news coverage. And even when there is, they always seem to be pro-Israel.
When my family went inot the gas chamber nothing was done...and people knew about the more than 6 million people who died.....but "it wasn't so bad", when the USA came to rescue the Europeans form the Nazi's we all are so greatful for the people who left their life and others to save others so the few left were saved.
When in 1948 the State of Israel was recognized by the world, there was another group that started to be jealous and because of jealousy they started to kill again...so please don't twist the truth...but I know you aren't willing to even listen to any one...you formed you own opinion and know nothing about facts....have you ever lived in Israel? By just visiting like I did as well, and talking to a few people that doesn't make you experience what the people expeirence. I'm here for 8 years and thougth that after 2 years I knew how things work over here...well not true...I'm still learning every day and find out new things....only when you really amongst the people you get to understand what is going on. My family moved over there in 1956 and they have experienced a lot. They have served in the army and when you as a soldier have to face a 6 year old Palestinian with a gun pointing at you who wants to kill you, just because you are Jewish and a Israeli...you have to try not to see that the kid is only 6...if you keep thinking that...well you are the one who is dead.....that is the reality and we all have seen the images of the children telling in their own language and being thought in school to hate Jews without even knowing one.
But I realize that you are probable deaf to hear or read these things... so please don't respond.
Can you not make a case without resorting to a personal attack?
Not a personal attack. Rather an hypothesis as to a possible origin for the idea that rather than seeking to act as an honest broker in the region, the US should actively take up sides behind its ally (Israel). This is a bone-headed plan, and those words do not comprise a personal attack either.
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Originally Posted by rb4browns
I never said anything about not advancing a workable peace. That would be a wonderful thing, except unless you define "workable peace" as Israel vanishing in to thin air...
A position that I advanced where, or are you willing to concede that you simply made that part up?
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Originally Posted by rb4browns
...there is no peace partner to work with. There cannot be a peace process when one party wants the other dead. Is that really such a difficult concept to grasp?
It shouldn't be. But when the kill-ratios run as high as ten-to-one in favor of those who would be claimed as the victims in the matter, it is hard to conclude that the entirety of the concept has actually sunk in in some places.
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Originally Posted by rb4browns
On a human level it's a terrible situation. That does not remove the fact that wht the Palestinians are experiencing now is a direct result of the choices they have made.
Then there are no limits or constraints upon Israel at all. They are warranted in whatever outlandish, brutal, and barbaric tactics they may choose to employ, for when all is said and done, those Palestinians have been guilty of Poor Decisionmaking®. Is that your position?
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Originally Posted by rb4browns
You can make the argument of, "what would you expect them to do other than fight," which I can accept. But you cannot seperate that when a nation chooses to go war and then suffers terribly at the hands of the power they decided to fight, they have to accept that those are the potential consequences of fighting.
This war was brought to the Palestinians far more than that they chose to fight it. And it continues to be brought to them by the IDF...day after day, month after month, year after year.
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Originally Posted by rb4browns
It is innacruate to say that the Palestinians have no other choice in 2008 then to continue to agitate for the destruction of Israel. As long as they choose to fight, they bear the ultimate responsibility for their suffering.
They should agree to be driven complacently into oblivion then. Either that or face a more sudden mass annihilation by a military superpower that (illegally) uses US-supplied cluster bombs against them. Do you recognize any sort of one-sidedness in this approach, or do you see that as being one of its advantages?
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Originally Posted by rb4browns
No, this is about the Egyptians remember?
As the claim was that Carter sold out the Palestinians, no I don't.
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Originally Posted by rb4browns
Sadat went in talking a good game about Arab solidarity and Palestinian liberation, and as soon as he got what he really wanted (Sinai) he cut a deal and ran.
Well, it was Sadat's visit to Israel that was the steppingstone to the Camp David process, and he did stay around long enough to recognize Israel's right to exist in peace, to establish diplomatic relations, and to sign a peace treaty. Also to sign off on the provisions that called for a fully autonomous Palestinian state and Israeli withdrawal from the occupied territories. These latter provisions of course have not been lived up to quite as well as have the former.
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Originally Posted by rb4browns
That Carter allowed this is just an example refuting your claim that every President has done so much for peace between Israel and the Palestinians except GW Bush.
Again, a claim that was not made. The actual claim was that Bush from the beginning simply walked away from any material involvement in the situation, abandoning decades of US efforts to serve as an honest broker in seeking peaceful resolutions of Arab-Israeli issues. Carter's achievements in bringing about the advances of the Camp David accords stand in marked contrast to the unceasing escalations of violence and brutality that have characterized these past eight years.
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Originally Posted by rb4browns
Oh, and for his trouble Sadat got Egypt kicked out of the peace loving Arab League for ten years and was assinated for his troubles. But darn, there are those facts that you like to call "excuses" again.
He was also awarded the Nobel Peace Prize and has left a so far 30-year legacy of peace between Egypt and Israel. Check the history books for the record prior to that point. And just by the way, facts alone do not an argument make. Egypt's expulsion from the Arab League and ultimately his own assassination by religious fanatics were risks that Sadat both recognized and was willing to run as part of the price for seeking to end the ceaseless cycles of violence that were crippling everyone in the region. We would be far better off today if we had more with his mindset, rather than one which allies with one side only and petulantly makes excuse for the brutal escalations of military and economic exploitation that this favored side has routinely of late engaged in.
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Originally Posted by rb4browns
So in your mind it all boils down to, "there would be peace if only Reagan and the Bush's weren't presidents?" Vapid and utterly meaningless. Bye bye.
No (again), in my mind it boils down to the fact that over these recent years, it has been more and more the case that Israel is in fact the obstacle to be overcome here. There is little question in my mind that this is in substantial part a reflection of a level of failure on the part of the current administration in this area that is unmatched by any that preceded it.
They have served in the army and when you as a soldier have to face a 6 year old Palestinian with a gun pointing at you who wants to kill you, just because you are Jewish and a Israeli...
With all due respect, that 6-year old would be far more likely to be carrying a rock, and his or her motivations for wanting to throw that rock at a tank would be quite likely to include the loss of not just one, but multiple family members to an over-the-top brutality that has become far too typical of the actions of one side in this conflict. Statistically, of course, that child does face a highly elevated risk of being shot dead on the spot by IDF forces. Rock against tank. It would be a clear matter of self-defense...
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