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Old 09-27-2008, 02:19 PM
 
Location: NW Nevada
14,134 posts, read 11,571,543 times
Reputation: 13194

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This topic came up in another thread and I feel the need to vent. The US M-4 and M-16 A-2/A-3 rifles need to be either upgraded or replaced. The .223 round on this platform is ok in it's tactical niche...urban, CQB. On human targets bent on killing you past 100 yards and in dirty nasty muddy or sandy environments the piece is too high maintenance for your average trooper. Please cease fire while I squirt some CLP on my weapon please. I have extensive experience with this weapon and I would trade it for an AK any day. Direct impingment gas operation? PLLLEEAASE. Lets give our guys a fighting chance an give them a .308 with a good top op type system (ala M-14 AK-47) and put the Black Rifle to rest ( In it's current form and caliber). The only ones that will mourn it's passing are the bad guys.
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Old 09-27-2008, 03:19 PM
 
Location: Raleigh, NC
9,043 posts, read 11,567,954 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NVplumber View Post
This topic came up in another thread and I feel the need to vent. The US M-4 and M-16 A-2/A-3 rifles need to be either upgraded or replaced. The .223 round on this platform is ok in it's tactical niche...urban, CQB. On human targets bent on killing you past 100 yards and in dirty nasty muddy or sandy environments the piece is too high maintenance for your average trooper. Please cease fire while I squirt some CLP on my weapon please. I have extensive experience with this weapon and I would trade it for an AK any day. Direct impingment gas operation? PLLLEEAASE. Lets give our guys a fighting chance an give them a .308 with a good top op type system (ala M-14 AK-47) and put the Black Rifle to rest ( In it's current form and caliber). The only ones that will mourn it's passing are the bad guys.
IMHO, the AK was and always will be the best rifle when you consider the 7.62 round is superior in terms of penetrative capability. The 6.8 round looks promising, saw it with the M468 rifle but unknown as to reliability. US troops, when permitted, have been reported many times to pick up AKs on the field and many entlisted military I speak with at the range speak highly of it over the AR Mattel toy guns.

They say that 5.56 NATO fragments when it hits flesh, causing immense wounds, but Russians reported on a "poison bullet" with the 5.45, although Falkner disproved that, albeit with controlled tests with ballistic gel.
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Old 11-26-2008, 07:52 PM
 
1,164 posts, read 1,583,626 times
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I'm in complete agreement, the AR series weapons need to be totally revamped or replaced.
The 5.56x45 round is just too small, has too little foot pound at the target (punch) and has way too much windage, (poor long range accuracy).
The direct impingement system is neat in theory but that's were it ends. In all sorts of practical real world environments the system is less than satisfactory, be it desert or jungle.
So, the same debate crops up. Can we find a battle rifle that will do it all?
Long range, good punch, highly accurate, light weight (including a full load of ammo), simple to maintain, and cheap to procure.
Answer, no...probably not. Some aspects are going to take back seat.
So, what type of system can we get that will give us most of what we want? Do we want to go to a completely new system? There is still lots of talk about bullpups....
Do we try to keep the legacy M16 AR family and try to upgrade it, yet again?
This would entail dropping the direct gas system for the gas tappet system. (a fairly easy upgrade that could be done to all AR systems.
Do we want to go to the 6.8 Rem. SPC? This would allow the AR's to fire a much improved round, through the same AR system, with few changes, (barrel, bolt, follower...some other things I'm sure) and yet keeping the same basic system....already quite familiar to the troops. We could save money by using what ever AR parts that carry over....
Do we want to go to the high impact plastic lower? That will reduce weight, and some say it is actually stronger. Add all the M1913 accessory rails that the troops want. keep Iron sights as "flip ups" but mount red-dots or ACOG's, already in use, as standard.
If we use the same basic magazines, then all the load bearing equipment out there would still be functional, no need to replace it.
Range practice would change though, and the troops would have to get used to the slightly increased recoil.
Now don't get me wrong, I love LOVE the 7.62x51 (.308) round, but the recoil is a problem, not for me, but for many troops, and lets face it, once things start to get interesting, many of us start to loosen our aim, so many of the selling points of the 7.62 round are not as important. Some of the bullpup designs I've seen that use the 7.62x51 have some SERIOUS recoil issues, and going to the 6.8 SPC (while still not as good as the 7.62) would solve that problem somewhat.The 6.8 or even the 6.5 while not perfect, are much MUCH better than the 5.56 and though the 7.62 is better overall the 6.8 would allow (with the other mods mentioned above) the use of the legacy system that we've already invested huge money in. With the new administration, we might not get the money to buy a whole new system so modifying what we have might make more sense and get the troops a weapon that is much more dependable.
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Old 11-26-2008, 09:36 PM
 
Location: somewhere in the woods
16,885 posts, read 12,992,350 times
Reputation: 5211
maybe a nice little trip to the range and firing the barret 6.8mm would be a welcome change. I have shot a friends rifle and it is very nice to shoot.

Barrett Rifles (http://www.barrettrifles.com/rifle_rec7.aspx - broken link)
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Old 11-26-2008, 09:52 PM
 
48,516 posts, read 83,664,057 times
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The coming weapons wll be able to fire a three shot burst wihle maintain a fatal hit for all three rounds. That is the general combet of the near future. Evenually the caeless round maybe become part of that system. A more powerful wepons to take the place of the browning auto used in WWII ;I;m not so sure about.
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Old 11-27-2008, 04:16 AM
 
Location: Orlando
8,233 posts, read 11,244,813 times
Reputation: 4062
Have we ever considered investing in peace then we would not have to rip away the flesh of another in a show of dominance or imperialism. I'm sure those who's IQ's are challenged by plants will have exception with this idea but what a concept. get along with each other.
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Old 11-27-2008, 04:24 AM
 
Location: Democratic Peoples Republic of Redneckistan
11,102 posts, read 13,153,225 times
Reputation: 3923
Quote:
Originally Posted by AONE View Post
Have we ever considered investing in peace then we would not have to rip away the flesh of another in a show of dominance or imperialism. I'm sure those who's IQ's are challenged by plants will have exception with this idea but what a concept. get along with each other.
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Old 11-27-2008, 04:26 AM
 
Location: Lafayette, Louisiana
14,095 posts, read 23,616,952 times
Reputation: 7981
AONE, that idea only works on paper but not in reality. As long as human nature leads some to become powerhungry madmen then we will need weapons to defend ourselves and our country. Putin's Russia is looking to restore the old USSR which includes eating up surrounding nations. South and Central America is filled with dictators who want what their neighbors have. Africa is always a hotbed of war. If America disbanded it's entire military and weapons then we open the door to invasion from other nations. Before you ask for us to disarm, why don't you take a trip to Iran, North Korea, Syria, and Russia and ask them to disarm.
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Old 11-27-2008, 04:31 AM
 
Location: Eastern Kentucky
1,237 posts, read 2,717,723 times
Reputation: 1287
Alone, I agree with you. Problem is, in order for this to work, all the leaders also have to agree with in and abide by it. It took a war to gain freedom of speech and it took another war to ensure that we do not all speek German. Not that I minded speaking German, but I have an atrocious accent. Since you seem to think highly of your IQ, I'm sure you could figure out how to get no violence treaties signed by the world leaders. Go for it.
I liked my M16. If they could just have figured out how to stop them from jamming so much. I hated that.
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Old 11-27-2008, 04:35 AM
 
Location: Lafayette, Louisiana
14,095 posts, read 23,616,952 times
Reputation: 7981
Those ceasefire agreements between the Palestinians and Israelis work only up until the Palestinians have received more amunition.
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