U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 09-30-2008, 02:08 PM
 
Location: London UK & Florida USA
7,922 posts, read 7,817,743 times
Reputation: 2035

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by paperhouse View Post
personal responsibility = selfishness. Just so we're clear on our terminology.
Personal responsibility is when you are made responsible for your mistakes.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 09-30-2008, 02:09 PM
 
Location: Albemarle, NC
7,730 posts, read 12,689,324 times
Reputation: 1504
Quote:
Originally Posted by ParkTwain View Post
"Austrian economic theory has predicted these bubbles before and will continue to do so."

Duh! It's called insufficient regulation of the markets, which the Austrians also love to espouse!
Deregulation only works when the people are smart enough and business activities are transparent. Right now, we have neither.

"But you must remember, my fellow-citizens, that eternal vigilance by the people is the price of liberty, and that you must pay the price if you wish to secure the blessing. It behooves you, therefore, to be watchful in your States as well as in the Federal Government." -- Andrew Jackson, Farewell Address, March 4, 1837
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-30-2008, 02:12 PM
 
Location: Santa Monica
4,708 posts, read 7,701,403 times
Reputation: 1029
Quote:
Originally Posted by geeoro View Post
Personal responsibility is when you are made responsible for your mistakes.

That's a great right-wing line, but it is naive (that is, inexperienced) and simplistic (that is, a failure of analysis) because it doesn't address real behaviors of profit-seeking market participants.

The problems come about when a market's profit-seeking individuals behave in the aggregate in a manner that threatens the viability of the economy or of a significant national market. When is it a "mistake" to try to make a profit in a marketplace under its own rules? That is what happened in the mortgage business. The rules governing that market were incomplete. They allowed profit-seeking ("greedy") individuals to express themselves in an unsustainable manner. The regulators of that market dropped the ball by not anticipating the deep damage to the overall economy that too much credit given to overpriced assets can do. Also, remember that TOO MUCH CREDIT IN THE FIRST PLACE LEADS TO OVERPRICED ASSETS. And TOO LITTLE CREDIT LEADS TO UNDERPRICED ASSETS, which is what you seeing today in the home real estate market. When the mortgage and credit markets get fixed, you will see significant appreciation again in home prices, hopefully in the next 6 months.

If the regulations on a marketplace don't place de facto limitations on the behaviors of the "greedy" among us and how they can, in the aggregate, destroy major parts of the American economy, then those regulations are inadequate.

In Capitalism, "Greed Is Good."

Last edited by ParkTwain; 09-30-2008 at 02:23 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-30-2008, 02:17 PM
 
Location: DFW, TX
2,935 posts, read 6,115,100 times
Reputation: 571
Quote:
Originally Posted by geeoro View Post
Where is the failure when the companies know that the Govt. will bail them out? Failure means consequenses which their aren't any at the moment. Wouldn't it be nice if all business owners knew that they can rape their own companies and the Govt. will ride to the rescue. That isn't capitalism, that is private greed wrapped in Govt. protection.
I haven't seen anyone on here who is a proponent of the free market suggest that these bailouts are a good idea... in fact, we've been the ones who have been arguing the hardest to allow failure. There's no incentive otherwise to "do the right thing."
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-30-2008, 02:18 PM
 
Location: London UK & Florida USA
7,922 posts, read 7,817,743 times
Reputation: 2035
Credit was given, not to benefit the borrower. There was fraud and maybe more. Greed was the driving force. Making a profit is not an excuse for greed. Accountability has been eroded to the point that it no longer exists. No accountability...No responsibility.... Unscrupulous dealings.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-30-2008, 02:18 PM
 
Location: Albemarle, NC
7,730 posts, read 12,689,324 times
Reputation: 1504
Quote:
Originally Posted by ParkTwain View Post
The problems come about when a market's profit-seeking individuals behave in the aggregate in a manner that threatens the viability of the economy or of a significant national market. When is it a "mistake" to try to make a profit in a marketplace under its own rules? That is what happened in the mortgage business. The rules governing that market were incomplete. They allowed profit-seeking ("greedy") individuals to express themselves in an unsustainable manner. The regulators of that market dropped the ball by not anticipating the deep damage to the overall economy that too much credit given to overpriced assets can do.
I agree 100%. So why do we want to allow them to rewrite the regulations in a way that benefits them? Shouldn't we rewrite the regulations to protect the people?

I have no problem with profits. IMO, honest profits are the backbone of capitalism and the foundation of America. We started a revolution over money (taxation without representation) once before. I don't know if we're willing to do that again or if it's necessary. We have the framework to do it peacefully.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-30-2008, 02:23 PM
 
Location: Albemarle, NC
7,730 posts, read 12,689,324 times
Reputation: 1504
Park, I'm glad to see we have found some common ground. Dennis Kucinich is right about one thing. This legislation is too much, too fast, with far too little discussion. If we're going to make changes, they need to be the right changes, not just those forced on us by those who created the mess. I don't agree that a bailout needs to include the homeowners because I don't think there should be a bailout, period.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-30-2008, 02:24 PM
 
Location: DFW, TX
2,935 posts, read 6,115,100 times
Reputation: 571
Quote:
Originally Posted by ParkTwain View Post
Libertarianism = "citizenship lite"
= glorification and institutionalization of selfishness
Yet another misconception by people who can't grasp the difference between government and private organizations. There isn't one solution to any problem, there are many... and socialization of the solution only creates a government monopoly, propped up by regulation and almost limitless funding.

Quote:
= shrinking of the American economy (no Federal income tax, etc.)
You summed it up right there.... you equate production with the federal government rather than consumption. You assume that without the federal government being a consumer, there would be no production. Free up federal tax dollars and allow individuals and businesses to compete internationally by lowering the cost of doing business.

Quote:
= handing over the economy and national politics to Big Capital, which was tried once for many decades leading up the Great Depression, no thanks for more of that
Libertarians weren't in favor of the Federal Reserve, the largest transfer of monetary power to a private organization. They're not in favor of government subsidized monopolies and regulations limting competition in countless industries.

But this is all way off topic.... I suggested another thread be started where we can discuss these issues.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-30-2008, 02:24 PM
 
Location: Santa Monica
4,708 posts, read 7,701,403 times
Reputation: 1029
You don't think that it might be better for the American economy for at least some of the mortgages to be owned (and later renegotiated) by the Feds?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-30-2008, 02:29 PM
 
Location: DFW, TX
2,935 posts, read 6,115,100 times
Reputation: 571
Quote:
Originally Posted by paperhouse View Post
Park, I'm glad to see we have found some common ground. Dennis Kucinich is right about one thing. This legislation is too much, too fast, with far too little discussion. If we're going to make changes, they need to be the right changes, not just those forced on us by those who created the mess. I don't agree that a bailout needs to include the homeowners because I don't think there should be a bailout, period.
The two major parties are trying to use this as a polarizing issue, and it's working as it has numerous times in the past. It's an opportunity to lead people to believe that there are only two solutions, that it's something that has to be decided in a matter of days, and an opportunity to point fingers.

The two major parties don't have a monopoly on truth, and should encourage the comeptition of ideas. Most people opposing a bailout do so on the principle that bad behavior should not be rewarded... but aren't against the idea of incorporating changes to ease the problems that we will face.

We need to have discussions and debates on these plans, allow a competition of ideas, and stop the closed door sessions. Just a few days ago 179 economic experts, including nobel prize winners, signed a petition requesting we take time to solve the problem and not rush into a solution. The great minds realize that making decisions based upon emotional knee-jerk reactions often times don't lead to solid solutions.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top