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Old 09-30-2008, 02:45 PM
 
Location: SoCal
144 posts, read 549,642 times
Reputation: 67

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Lee View Post
What a lot of folks forget to mention in their documentaries is that the meager wages in China are in addition to the free room and board and super cheap meals. Yes, factories house their workers. No, I wouldn't want to live in one of those places - I've been there and seen it all. But those folks left the countryside for a good reason - better money and living conditions in the cities.
Totally agree China is dirt poor with mostly farmers, the one that can get out of the countryside make 4X what they would on the farm, that's why China has restrictions on immigration or else the big cities would be overrun with peasants from the countryside.

That means if work in the city for 11 years you could essentially retire in the countryside with your saved wages since most people work about 45 years in their lifetime. These wages are slave wages compared to western countries but it's great wage for the poor chinese.

In fact wages are actually becoming too expensive in some industries like textiles so some Chinese companies along with companies like the GAP are opening factories in Vietnam because the wages are too expensive to make clothes in China now.
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Old 09-30-2008, 02:56 PM
 
Location: SoCal
144 posts, read 549,642 times
Reputation: 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_Ryder View Post
The Chinese don't want to hurt us, they just want to sell us stuff. They want the US economy to thrive because their economy is based on selling us stuff. However, they also know that we've reached the point where we can't pay all we owe back. They want to sell us stuff but they don't want to give it away for free.

If they actually had another market like the US for all their stuff they wouldn't care if our economy collapsed but as it is they are very concerned since the health of their economy is linked directly to our ability to buy stuff. In a way they are helping to boost our economy by forcing us to get a handle on our reckless government AND personal spending habits. Tough love as it were. We've become addicted to credit from the top levels of government down to the ghettos and as long as other countries act as enablers, we'll never get our act together. While it's true we probably won't be buying as much from them in the future, we will actually be able to pay for what we buy.

It's our own greed that did this, not the Chinese or even the Government. It's the American people that stood back and let the government get out of control. It's us that bought all the latest fashions and electronic gadgets with money we didn't have. It's us that financed a whole new $50K kitchen when a couple gallons of paint would have done nicely. How many Americans went into debt for a new bathroom? How many bought dirt bikes and jet skis with credit? You borrow money to buy a car to get to work. You borrow money to start a business. You borrow money to buy a place to live. You don't borrow money to buy toys.

We've known for years the out of control spending would eventually backfire but still we keep buying and borrowing.
Excellent post, China has 500+ billion in Treasury securities, 500-750 billion in currency and around 400 billion invested in fannie mae/freddie mac, they are easily in for a 1.5 trillion. Together with Japan (600 billion in treasury securities) they hold a huge portion of US debt, they been loaning us money in the form of buying US securities for ages I highly doubt they want the US to fail anytime soon.
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Old 09-30-2008, 10:46 PM
 
Location: Ohio
19,683 posts, read 14,144,272 times
Reputation: 15867
Quote:
Originally Posted by veg8 View Post
some Chinese companies along with companies like the GAP are opening factories in Vietnam because the wages are too expensive to make clothes in China now.
The GAP has been buying clothes from Vietnam ever since the US lifted sanctions. They don't actually own factories, rather they license them to make clothing.
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Old 10-01-2008, 12:49 AM
 
Location: Rural Northern California
1,019 posts, read 2,478,696 times
Reputation: 824
Quote:
Originally Posted by ViewFromThePeak View Post
Wow, the arrogance.

I guess China can keep all of the fresh fish they normally send and just enjoy it themselves. Shrimp from Thailand? Well, just outbid us for it and it stays more local. Much less transportation cost too.
Arrogance? Sure, but it's arrogance based in reality. China is roughly the same size as the United States, but with four times the population, which is estimated expand to roughly 1.5 billion in the next 25-50 years. In terms of agricultural production, water is far more important than land, and China is notorious for wasting/polluting critical water supplies that could otherwise be used for food production. Also, keep in mind that in the United States, agriculture is an ever developing science, which is a large part of why we are the world's largest exporter of agricultural products. This is much less true in China, where, for the most part, peasant farmers work the same fields, with the same techniques, that have been passed down for generations (and indeed, China has some of the largest disparities in wealth and general lifestyle conditions of any major industrial nation).

Do I want innocent Chinese to starve to death? Absolutely not, especially considering there government is largely not accountable to its people, and its actions can in some respects be regarded as separate from the wants/desires of the population. My comment was simply a retort to a previous who indicated that China could "destroy America" by poisoning us. It was an arrogant response to an alarmist statement.
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Old 10-01-2008, 12:52 AM
 
Location: SoCal
144 posts, read 549,642 times
Reputation: 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
The GAP has been buying clothes from Vietnam ever since the US lifted sanctions. They don't actually own factories, rather they license them to make clothing.
Haha, even better for The GAP, they don't even need to invest capital for a factory. The bottom line is that even some chinese companies are looking to find cheaper labor costs it's a crazy world that we live in
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Old 10-01-2008, 12:57 AM
 
Location: southern california
55,480 posts, read 74,374,114 times
Reputation: 47872
other countries not lending us money is natures way of saying stop debting.
my fellow americans, need a lil 12 step doncha.
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Old 10-01-2008, 03:28 AM
 
Location: Imaginary Figment
11,456 posts, read 12,690,467 times
Reputation: 4759
Bush's America-both micro and macroeconomic-were all about spending money we didn't have. We have become a debtor nation who produce nothing and consume. That's how we got to the point we are now. Ask China, they'll tell you all about it.
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Old 10-01-2008, 07:47 AM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
41,505 posts, read 51,222,776 times
Reputation: 24606
Quote: from Micra -

"You're quite right.

The US most certainly did underestimate China. I can tell you from the paradigm in the 1980s and 1990s that it was believed that China would not be where it is now until much later, about 2030 or so.

The whole US geo-political strategy was predicated on that. The US thought it could move in the Middle East, then Central Asia, then destroy Russia and bring what would be the former eastern Russian republics under its control, then by that time, Africa would be sufficiently developed for the US to shift its strategy there.

China has just mucked everything up. They're competing with the US for the Middle East and Central Asia, and the Chinese have taken over Africa and are developing it at a much faster pace, plus the Chinese have made tremendous inroads into South America.

If the US fails in Iraq, then it fails with its MECAS strategy and the US fails, period. The US cannot shift its strategy. It would cost $Billions if not $Trillions and take decades to set up intelligence networks, and establish naval and air bases.

Understand we aren't talking about next week, or next month or next year or even 10 years from now, but we're looking 20 to 25 years down the road."

Micra - What are you talking about? The late great American Empire or some computer strategy game? We never had the resources to develop an extensive Empire, and by going into debt to develop one, we will hand the Empire to the lenders

You are right about underestimating China. They baited a trap with our greed and we fell for it. The empire of the Han has been expanding slowly for 6,000 years and shows no sign of stopping. They can do this because they are the most thoughtful and realistic people on Earth. I expect they will control most of the planet by the end of this century.
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