How many guns do you keep at home for personal use?

[ParkTwain]

Originally Posted by geeoro

Crime Statistics - Murders

For your point to be made more strongly, you might also provde the data about the murder rate from all causes in the U.S. versus U.K. That way, it's more clear whether more of the murders in the U.S. are related to the use of guns. That fact, if true (and I believe it is true), would support a hypothesis that the greater availability of guns in the U.S. is contributing to a higher murder rate in the U.S. versus the U.K. On the other hand, if the murder rate from all causes in the two nations is nearly equivalent, that would support the hypothesis that there is a comparable tendency to murder and that the choice of weapon is simply one of "convenience." But I believe that it is a well-established sociological "fact" that the murder rate in the U.S. is disproportionately high, compared to nations with comparable standards of living, due to the prevalence of guns in the society.

Also, the murder rate from all causes, and including from guns, is much higher in certain U.S. states, most of which are in the Southeast, than the U.S. average. It would be of interest to "drill down" into the sociological facts for those states to determine perhaps additional contributing social factors, such as income level. And these days, most gun-perpetrated murders in the U.S., in absolute numbers, are committed by gang-related perpetrators in the parts of major cities where most of the drug trafficking takes place.

[Tin Knocker]

Originally Posted by geeoro

Get real. Of course we have a few nut jobs here who like guns. very few.

Not very few at all. Most gun owners are anything but nut jobs. Your ignorance is showing.
Do you have any clue what the procedures for buying a gun in the US are?
We have a database including all felons, violent or not, all sex offenders, all domestic offenders & all people ceryified mentally incompetent. Those people are all not permitted to buy guns or own guns. Most states have more restrictions.


Its a fact that you cannot protect people with legislation, all you can do is deny everyone a freedom in the hopes that some crime is prevented.
The trouble with your system is that if one, just one, person is killed or harmed because of your law that blood is on your hands because you denied them the ability to defend themselves.

So even if we do have a greater murder rate we are still morally head & shoulders above you because we enable our citizens to do for themselves what NO govt anywhere at any time can do, protect themselves. They dont have to, but they can.

Unless you can 100% guarantee that everybody is safe from harm you do your countrymen a great injustice supporting gun prohibition. Weather you admit it or not. On the other hand if its safe & everybody loves each other why outlaw guns? They are fun to shoot, it is an olympic sport & they hold great historical importance.

It is in my opinion a good thing that your police are unarmed if the people are going to be rendered helpless. I'v long believed that if guns are no longer needed or effective as protection then LEO should be the first to be disarmed. Be that as it may I dont think that the right to keep & bear arms will ever be rendered useless & I think that any country that bans civilian gun ownership is no better than Hitlers Germany. After all that was one of the very first things he did, disarm the populace. I'm glad Britan learned from their experience with him.

[swagger]

On comparing murder rates here and across the pond, I have three words...

Freedom isn't free.

If you're willing to allow your country to deny you more and more rights so that you can feel a little bit safer in your neighborhood, that's fine. I don't live there, and it's not my place to tell you how you how your country should be run.

I expect nothing less in return. If you're not a U.S. citizen, then it's not your place to be telling us how ours should be run. You can believe that what we've chosen is wrong - that's your prerogative - but please keep your mouth shut about it.

The fact that millions of people enter our country every year looking for a better life tells me that we must be doing something right...

[monkeywrenching]

I personally have 63 rifles, pistols and shotguns at home for personal defense. I need more than 1 in case 1 jams and I need to have another close by to empty into the crook breaking into my home.
I also have more than 1 50 caliber rifle for those tough crooks coming into my home.

btw, all my firearms are at all times loaded with a round in the chamber, otherwise the firearm is just a club.

[Nomander]

Originally Posted by geeoro

Did you NOT read the report?

Yes, did you? Do you also know the source to which they claim this information is gathered?

For instance, if you go to the NationMaster site and pull up your report, you are given this list.

NationMaster - Gun violence > Homicides > % homicides with firearms (most recent) by country

If you go over and click source to find out where they are getting this information, you get this:

Gun violence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


If you then scan down the list and find the US listed statistics and follow that down to its source listing you get:

15. ^ a b c d e f g 1999 figures; 2000 figures not available

Not only that, but the statistics are preceded by this disclaimer:

"The statistics cannot take into account the differences that exist between the legal definitions of offences in various countries, of the different methods of tallying, etc. Consequently, the figures used in these statistics must be interpreted with great caution. In particular, to use the figures as a basis for comparison between different countries is highly problematic."[14]

When you do go to the UN's 2007 study to which it lists these statistics, it merely gives a percentage of fire arm related homicides. It does not denote what they are or the criteria they use to come to their conclusion.

If you remember back with the statistics quoted by Mr. Moore in his movie, he also made some lofty claims about the correlation between countries. His method was devious as he combined all gun related homicides in the US (including those performed in the case of self defense, lawfully through the use by a law enforcement officer as well as many other classifications which did not properly show a relation as he omitted these factors in the countries he was comparing with).

There are no logical references in these studies to find any reasoning as to how the obtained their data and the methods they used. We are given merely numbers and told this is the truth. Now I have dealt with UN reports before and they are slippery, assumptive, and sometimes plain devious in their claims.

The fact that one must follow a chain of source links where Nationmasters uses "wiki" as its source list only goes to further the problem with your claims. Not only that, but within the Wiki sources, there are numerous "anti-gun" sources and one would think that if biased sources would be considered valid, then one would also see the NRA's statistics listed. Especially when the NRA has been found to be very crediable source for many doing crime statistics studies (this is a fact). Though they are not listed, and again this is typical of a wiki site which by the way is not a valid source as even educational institutions will not accept them.

What I would be interested to see is some sources from your own countries criminal justice organizations, not a UN report. Maybe you could provide us with the statistics from your own country and I can then provide you with the statistics from mine.

That is, from the horses mouth and not from a 3rd party who summarizes its claims for its own nefarious purposes.

Here would be the statistics for crimes in the US:

Bureau of Justice Statistics Home page

We can then take your claims from your own countries data and attempt to compare them properly, from the core of each statistic, apples to apples, but as you well and know, being that your own source told you that this is highly complicated and often misused, this may prove difficult. The only benefit is that we get to start from scratch with the core values.

I doubt you would want to do that? I mean, one it would mean that you actually have to think, rather than being told. And two, there is no fall back where you can hide behind circle sourcing. Being that you have been making lofty claims throughout this thread it is obvious you are not informed on the actual facts and leave talking point sites and vague studies to make your claims for you.

Mr. Moore tried to play this game with his movie and he was torn apart with his fallicies.

Also, by the way, you never answered my question, merely pointing to your report as if I am supposed to devine your relevalation. I have probably wasted too much time on you already as you will no doubt use devious discussion tactics to avoid providing any real information. Again, as I said, you have no clue about what you are talking about.

[molochai2580]

For personal use? We have 3 guns in the house.

Add a 4th that is company issued to my husband for work. Of course that one is only in the house when he is not working.