Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 10-25-2008, 08:49 PM
 
8,978 posts, read 16,531,721 times
Reputation: 3020

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by mackinac81 View Post
My mom loved Pat Buchanan. Voted for him twice back in the 90s. I thought he was nuts, until the iraq war and he actually made some sense. My opinion of him is better than it was then
I agree. His message certainly isn't 'cheerful', and he can get a little grumpy...but I fail to see anything he says that doesn't stand up to the reality. Today's situation isn't too 'cheerful', either. Buchanan's is a message that angers many, because it's hard to argue with his 'take' on things..it's common sense.

Call him a 'grouch' if you want.....but you can't say he's not 'on target'. A society that neglects to maintain itself, will find that someone else will be glad to step in a maintain it instead.....only the 'newcomers' will maintain it to THEIR standards. Human Nature 101.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 10-26-2008, 02:57 AM
 
707 posts, read 1,291,460 times
Reputation: 438
I have no problem with immigration, my grandpa came from Germany. But we all assimilated to form an american culture. Today we have all forms of seperate cultures springing up everywhere. London has a very similiar problem. Can no longer define America, this is my concern.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-26-2008, 04:57 AM
 
19,198 posts, read 31,425,821 times
Reputation: 4013
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
That argument is often made..but I disagree that it's relevant...it's not so much that the IMMIGRANTS today are 'bad' or 'worse than before'...it's that the society into which they're ARRIVING has now lost a good deal of the resolve and determination it once had, and thus, today's 'additions' are tearing apart a society already devoid of much of its former identity.
I fear that you are looking at a Norman Rockwell painting of an America that never was and worrying that we are not like that anymore. From our actual former identity, we have worked hard to excise things like corruption, exploitaion, abject poverty, and overt racism and other bigotries...all things that Rockwell never painted and that stood as barriers to delivering on the promises we made to each other in our founding documents and principles. These are no part of any former identity that should have endured. The foreign-born who come today are no different from those who came before them. They are merely people who come from the other side of an imaginary line. They may speak a different language. They may cook different foods and sing different songs and in some cases worship unfamiliar gods. They are still just people. Nothing more threatening than that. We will influence them, and they will influence us. Same as it ever was. We can allow the process to be unifying, or insist that it be divisive. That's the ball that is in our court. The option of not playing the game is not available.

Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
So 'PC' have we become, we can't even agree that immigrants should arrive LEGALLY anymore (oh, it's 'OK', of course....but not really mandatory)...and even THAT fact causes no end of 'hand-wringing' and 'second-guessing' and heated debate.
The town that I live in first established a speed limit in 1904. It was 12 miles per hour. Had that law been left on the books, it would today be antiquated, failing to address the town's current situation and its current needs. It would be routinely disrespected by nearly everyone. Our immigration laws today are also antiquated. They do not reflect our current situation or our current needs. That they are widely disrespected is the fault of the law, not of the people. We saw proposed not so long ago a package for comprehensive immigration reform that while being overly punitive would nevertheless have been a signficant step forward toward normalization. Unfortunately, legislators caved in that instance -- as they did not with respect to the bailout -- to the yapping of mindless masses, failing to remember that what the founders called "popular passions" are often ill-conceived and grossly misinformed. Now we will have to begin that work over again. The product of it will not be the equivalent of a 12-mph speed limit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
To compare the immigration of past eras to today's, requires more than simple 'numbers' or even 'percentages'. Buchanan seems to feel (and I agree), that any society, including this one, if it loses sight of what it "is"..or what it "stands for", becomes in effect, no society at all...and thus will fall easy prey to any and all 'threats'.
This is an old and tired rhetoric. Did we lose sight of ourselves in ending slavery? In extending to women the right to vote? In the day, we would have been told that this was what we were doing. Imagine an America in which blacks and females could tell us what to do! This is not the America that our forefathers left to us...that they bled and died for. This is what we were told in the day. Our current situation demands that there be significant immigration going forward, so it will happen. Our choices involve only the ways in which we will react to it. Productive or counter-productive? It's your call.

Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
If 'we' (the 'locals') don't set the 'rules', the 'newbies' can, and will, make their own...to fit THEIR agenda. And lately, I'm afraid we've done a VERY poor job of 'setting the rules' (we're told that it's not 'nice' to set rules)....and for this neglect of our duty, I'm afraid we'll someday look back in deep regret.
Frankly, I hear mostly alarmism and paranoia talking. The agendas of immigrants are economic and sociological and are, when actually examined, very little different from those of anyone else. Azatlan, the NAFTA highway, the Amero, and the New World Order? These are tin-foil hat talk. Our classic immigrants seek jobs that pay wages that allow them to better support their families and raise their children into a better world than what they know now. They work hard, they show up on time, they don't complain, they invest the time and effort required to do whatever job right. Sound familiar? Sound threatening? They are trying to help us out while seeking to help themselves. Maybe we should be giving them more of a hand here than simply the back of it.

Buchanan's approach to all this is of course different. He harkens back to the days of defending our great land and culture from the threats that were posed by blacks and women. I wouldn't necessarily fault all of his intentions in this. But his evidence, arguments, and conclusions in the area of immigration do leave a great deal to be desired.

Last edited by saganista; 10-26-2008 at 05:07 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-26-2008, 06:21 AM
 
Location: Romeoville, IL
1,242 posts, read 2,456,804 times
Reputation: 516
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcmastersteve View Post
If there were more Pat Buchanans' and Ron Pauls' within the republican party, not only would you not be the Iraqi mess you're in, you wouldn't be in bailout mess either. Pat has long supported the isolationist position of countries should mind their own business, but he has supported Ron Paul in the respected magazine 'American Conservative' against corporatism. My only criticism of Buchanan, would be his position on defending the religious right, as I have always believed that church and state must remain separate issues. Neither the pope nor the president has any right interfering with my liberty.
How does the religious right affect your life? The only issue I can think of off the top of my head MAY be abortion, but even that is highly debatable as you could argue that abortion not only affects the woman, but the baby as well.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-26-2008, 06:53 AM
 
19,198 posts, read 31,425,821 times
Reputation: 4013
Well, yeah, there's abortion...and marriage, and gay rights, and sex-ed, and evolution, and Israel, and the whole process of substituting binary, revealed, absolute, and mystical thinking for rational analysis on just about every other issue that comes down the pipe, resulting in the creation of large numbers of people who will believe anything they are told and can't actually think their way out of a paper bag. Other than that, probably the religious right hasn't had very much effect on anything really...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-26-2008, 07:04 AM
 
Location: Oriental, NC
917 posts, read 2,295,738 times
Reputation: 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
Well, yeah, there's abortion...and marriage, and gay rights, and sex-ed, and evolution, and Israel, and the whole process of substituting binary, revealed, absolute, and mystical thinking for rational analysis on just about every other issue that comes down the pipe, resulting in the creation of large numbers of people who will believe anything they are told and can't actually think their way out of a paper bag. Other than that, probably the religious right hasn't had very much effect on anything really...
I really like you!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-26-2008, 07:19 AM
 
19,198 posts, read 31,425,821 times
Reputation: 4013
Thanks. My cats seem to feel that way too. At least, sometimes...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-26-2008, 07:28 AM
 
5 posts, read 8,039 times
Reputation: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcmastersteve View Post
If there were more Pat Buchanans' and Ron Pauls' within the republican party, not only would you not be the Iraqi mess you're in, you wouldn't be in bailout mess either. Pat has long supported the isolationist position of countries should mind their own business, but he has supported Ron Paul in the respected magazine 'American Conservative' against corporatism. My only criticism of Buchanan, would be his position on defending the religious right, as I have always believed that church and state must remain separate issues. Neither the pope nor the president has any right interfering with my liberty.
I agree with you. We've had a country that has been run into the ground because it is being run for the benefit of multi-national corporations that have no country loyalty, not for the benefit of the people of the USA and their interests. It is also being run for the benefit of other countries often due to pressure from in country lobbying groups. Why are we giving billions of dollars that we don't have to countries like Israel, Egypt, Pakistan, etc while our own country goes down the drain?

I agree also that the interests of church and state should be kept entirely separate. If a religious group or church gets involved in politics as a religious centric group they should lose their IRS tax free status. That goes for Jews, Catholics, Protestant, Evangelicals etc.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-26-2008, 08:33 AM
 
8,978 posts, read 16,531,721 times
Reputation: 3020
Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
I fear that you are looking at a Norman Rockwell painting of an America that never was and worrying that we are not like that anymore. From our actual former identity, we have worked hard to excise things like corruption, exploitaion, abject poverty, and overt racism and other bigotries...all things that Rockwell never painted and that stood as barriers to delivering on the promises we made to each other in our founding documents and principles. These are no part of any former identity that should have endured. The foreign-born who come today are no different from those who came before them. They are merely people who come from the other side of an imaginary line. They may speak a different language. They may cook different foods and sing different songs and in some cases worship unfamiliar gods. They are still just people. Nothing more threatening than that. We will influence them, and they will influence us. Same as it ever was. We can allow the process to be unifying, or insist that it be divisive. That's the ball that is in our court. The option of not playing the game is not available.


The town that I live in first established a speed limit in 1904. It was 12 miles per hour. Had that law been left on the books, it would today be antiquated, failing to address the town's current situation and its current needs. It would be routinely disrespected by nearly everyone. Our immigration laws today are also antiquated. They do not reflect our current situation or our current needs. That they are widely disrespected is the fault of the law, not of the people. We saw proposed not so long ago a package for comprehensive immigration reform that while being overly punitive would nevertheless have been a signficant step forward toward normalization. Unfortunately, legislators caved in that instance -- as they did not with respect to the bailout -- to the yapping of mindless masses, failing to remember that what the founders called "popular passions" are often ill-conceived and grossly misinformed. Now we will have to begin that work over again. The product of it will not be the equivalent of a 12-mph speed limit.


This is an old and tired rhetoric. Did we lose sight of ourselves in ending slavery? In extending to women the right to vote? In the day, we would have been told that this was what we were doing. Imagine an America in which blacks and females could tell us what to do! This is not the America that our forefathers left to us...that they bled and died for. This is what we were told in the day. Our current situation demands that there be significant immigration going forward, so it will happen. Our choices involve only the ways in which we will react to it. Productive or counter-productive? It's your call.


Frankly, I hear mostly alarmism and paranoia talking. The agendas of immigrants are economic and sociological and are, when actually examined, very little different from those of anyone else. Azatlan, the NAFTA highway, the Amero, and the New World Order? These are tin-foil hat talk. Our classic immigrants seek jobs that pay wages that allow them to better support their families and raise their children into a better world than what they know now. They work hard, they show up on time, they don't complain, they invest the time and effort required to do whatever job right. Sound familiar? Sound threatening? They are trying to help us out while seeking to help themselves. Maybe we should be giving them more of a hand here than simply the back of it.

Buchanan's approach to all this is of course different. He harkens back to the days of defending our great land and culture from the threats that were posed by blacks and women. I wouldn't necessarily fault all of his intentions in this. But his evidence, arguments, and conclusions in the area of immigration do leave a great deal to be desired.
Sorry I can't expound at length....I'm just running out the door. Your ideas are good, of course...but simplistic, in the fact that your 'take' on things seems to be that immigrants just 'naturally' want to come here to 'help' us....that they all 'love us', and want to be a 'part of things'. Some DO fit this description...others decidedly do not. We're unable to differentiate, though.

You seem to feel that "ALL change is GOOD"....some is, of course... while other changes are negative. Again, with the advent of modern-day PC, we're unable to point out these differences. We're left with a scenario in which ALL immigrants, legal or not, arrive here and somehow shed all their "bad", rough, disparate qualities....they have myriad languages, habits, beliefs, mores, and ways of relating to each other, to 'authority', and to us....but ALL of them, somehow...(by simple 'instinct', one would suppose) will somehow "fit in" to the system, without any outside pressure to do so. I guess living in a free 'First World' liberal democracy is just an instinct we're all born with? No, I think this is a horribly naive notion. Yet that's what we're told.....and apparently expected to believe.

Don't misread me....I'm part of a very multi-racial, multiethnic family...even my marriage has two 'races'....the extended family even more. Yet all of us 'got in' before the current "PC madness" took effect...and as a result, all of us were PRESSURED to assimilate...and did so. We now don't have to 'celebrate our differences', we're simply aware of them.

As for your charge of my making a "tired old rhetorical" argument? Guilty !....ALL old arguments get 'tired'...even yours. That's because they must be repeated endlessly. "Wear your seat belts"....."Don't Drink and Drive"..."Don't Spend more than you Make"...."Eat Fruits and Vegetables"..."A Country can't continue to prosper in freedom if it doesn't have some cultural 'base' ".....ALL of these are 'tired', monotonous old arguments, to which few people pay attention.....yet ALL of them are sound advice.

Again, forgive me for being in a 'rush'....see you next week..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:08 PM.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top