A moderates rant

[the_pines]

I dont care which party or what label someone rides. I never have. Thats just a stumbling block that people get hung up on.

Shadow Laws. They need to stop and be overturned.

How did this country pass the Enemy Combatant law that denies the right to trial and jury for anyone considered a combatant of the United States? Who ever wrote the bill that has leaks in it that tear down almost half of the freedoms and liberties in the constiution??

Right before that, you had the Patriot Act that allows the government to skip the whole search warrant and right to privacy and security in your own home thing. Its a 1-2 combo that has undermined almost everything in the constition.

Just like that, in the blink of an eye. All for good intentions. If we Americans dont make a stand and really try to find out the motives of our government I dont think we will have a chance to by putting it off. Complianing is the American way. That hasnt gotten us anywhere.

Vets arent respected either. Its just one big farce. Send all of these politicans and other brotherhood and fraternal members to war. Its almost like we're being controlled through fear mongering.

[Amaznjohn]

Originally Posted by Mike from back east

They DID balance the budget in the 1990's, by working WITh the 'loyal opposition' across the aisle. I don't see how that cost us any billions. Seems to me it saved us many billions. Don't you like a balanced budget?

Meanwhile, Bush's tax cuts got us NOTHING but red ink (only cut I agree with is stopping the double tax on corporate dividends). The tax cuts made NO improvement to crumbling infrastructure (chunks of our bridges here are falling onto I-25); the cuts got us no solution to Army's $20B+ deficit in the facility maintenance accounts (see this week's pitiful scandal at Walter Reed Medical Center); the cuts meant that soldiers die in Iraq for lack of money to buy HUMVEE and body armor they should've had before they went over; the cuts did nothing to fix Social Security, the cuts did nothing for border security. If those hundreds of billions of giveaway dollars had been "spent" on putting people to work on REAL issues, and not pandering to the ideology of the far right, then we'd be in much better shape today than we are.

Bush "spent" HUNDREDS of BILLIONS of DOLLARS on tax cuts for the wealthy with NOTHING to show for it. How can that be good? Your logic says that solving = spending = bad. How can spending hundreds of billions and solve NOTHING be good? Are you serious? Or are you just a troll out here baiting people?

I watched that idiot on TV give us simplistic mealy mouthed crap about giving tax cuts to the wealthy cause they'd know what to do with the money, he actually said they'd take that money and invest it, open factories, provide jobs. What does he think we are, grade-school-level rubes like himself? In my town, Intel has a chip plant...1000 employees. Intel set aside a billion dollars, to open a new plant - in Vietnam... and yes, they will close the plant here within 2 years...out go another 1000 good jobs. Yeah, they're opening a new plant, and providing jobs, in Vietnam.

Nothing wrong with solving problems, even if there's a cost to do so. There is a lot that's wrong with NOT solving problems. Solve a problem now for X dollars. Let them fester for years and solve them later for 10X dollars. Far cheaper to solve problems now. Very expensive to give away money (via tax cuts) while getting nothing for it. If we had 'spent' a few billion on real border security like we should have after the 1986 amnesty, then we wouldn't have this HUGE problem on our plate today... this problem has festered for 20 years, and this one is going to cost a fortune to solve... but wait, you'd rather have the problem in your backyard than solve it, right? How much are you willing to spend to move away from it...ask the tens of thousands who are leaving CA in droves to get away from not spending/solving...

s/mike

Economics 101: To expand an economy, investments in business must occur. For investments to occur, capital must be made available for investment, not consuming. The achievers invest, non-achievers consume. Cutting taxes for those who can invest, grows the economy, creates jobs, and makes life better for everyone who cares to achieve.

If you'll notice, once the tax cuts were implemented, revenues increased. Why? Because investment occurred, increasing the number of jobs and the number of taxpayers. If you think this is "crap", then you might need to take an economics course. The rich get richer because they keep doing the things that make them rich. The poor get poorer because they keep doing the things that make them poor.

[Mike from back east]

Originally Posted by Amaznjohn

Economics 101: To expand an economy, investments in business must occur. For investments to occur, capital must be made available for investment, not consuming. The achievers invest, non-achievers consume. Cutting taxes for those who can invest, grows the economy, creates jobs, and makes life better for everyone who cares to achieve.

If you'll notice, once the tax cuts were implemented, revenues increased. Why? Because investment occurred, increasing the number of jobs and the number of taxpayers. If you think this is "crap", then you might need to take an economics course. The rich get richer because they keep doing the things that make them rich. The poor get poorer because they keep doing the things that make them poor.

John, agree that what you state are the conventional theories... when America was largely a closed system, making everything that we consumed... no longer the case in a global economy. I'm not buying Bush's simplistic argument. No new plants opened. But we did get some nice new burger bars, staffed by illegals in the kitchen....

I took economics, both the standard stuff and later on transport-specific and transport regulatory law. We are drowning in money, gots billions of it floating around every day, pouring into the stock market, housing, consumption of goods, booze, cars. No need for a tax cut to give people money to invest, there's so much money out there chasing investments now that the stock market is at an all time high as people seek somewhere to park it. Money is out there chasing stocks, real estate and other investments. The prices of these 'investments' keep climbing...has to if it's going to sop up all that cash. The 'need' for Bush's cuts was never proven... he just claimed it was so... as per your conventional wisdom, nothing more.

In this country, the rich get richer by various means, such as:
- bribing congress with campaign donations and getting tax breaks and loopholes as a payback;
- stealing it by fraud and illegal accounting (Enron, Worldcom, many more);
- hiring illegal immigrants and working them half to death for starvation wages, then kicking them out;
- moving our factories to the orient (see Intel story, above);
- cancelling health insurance coverage on employees and pocketing the savings;
- scamming the mortgage markets (HSBC is now eating $10B);
- leveraged buyouts with subsequent rape of pension funds (big game in the latter 1980's);
- bogus loans and sorry-assed deals that led to the S&L debacle of the Reagan-Bush era, we ate that too via the RTC;
- going bankrupt to escape unfunded pension plans and letting the taxpayers eat the bill (UAL, GM, more to follow); .

We're going backwards in this country. No new plants opened, they were closed.

Job growth is touted, but much "demand" is illusory, driven by a huge run-up in illegal immigration... millions come here which ratchets up demand for housing, food, and the essentials. Inflation is kept in check since illegals have no unions to turn to for a living wage and benefits. The small-business-employer-class loves it, they get rich on the backs of others who do our landscaping, gardening, cleaning, drywall, painting, cooking, serving, roofing, concrete work, heavy lifting, etc...

Revenues may have gone up a tad, but a $1B/day in red ink is a huge gap the cuts never filled. Revenue is up because consumers keep spending and so do the millions of illegals. According to the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, tax cuts do not pay for themselves as the Bush camp so fervently claim. This is nothing but the discredited Reagonomics of discredited David Stockman making an encore. See: http://www.cbpp.org/3-8-06tax.htm

Bush's tax cuts are nothing but a sop to the far right, which they say is his "base" (BTW, I hate that word). His father ticked off "the base" and this suckup of a president wants to appease them. That's it. We're hosed.

We had a balanced budget and a sound economy in the 1990's, it wasn't broke, didn't need fixing. Now we are "broke" and almost as badly as the old Soviet Union. The USSR went bankrupt from the cold war and withdrew. We have a $7T national debt and think we "won" something. Illusions & delusions abound. Lets all go out and buy a gas guzzling SUV and HDTV to prop up the economy and tax revenues... gotta keep those cheery illusions spinning...

s/Mike

[Dd714]

Originally Posted by dancocal

Most of us lean one way or the other.

Personally I am a fiscal conservative, tough on crime, pro gun, anti-drug.

I am also a liberal thinker and believe my or anybody elses religion has no place in government. That includes stem cell, womans rights, and who can get married.

I place the environment over business.

I believe our politicians preach values, than churn out policies that ultimately contradict those values.

Actually my worst fear is that the only difference between our and other governments is instead of being told to believe a lie - is that we have a choice in whose lies to believe in.

What I am getting at is the debate over libs and cons is a waste compared to individual issues.

Just my rant.

Looks like this subject is spinning off but I will get back to the original post...I totally agree, what amuses me is some of the responses I am seeing from members I recognize (not naming names here) are those same members that address EACH AND EVERY subject in this political form as a partisan, black and white, one way or the other, subject. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad - some of these member that are agreeing with you are the same ones that are saying Immigration, Terrorism, budget deficits, health insurance, global warming, hurricanes, it being to cold, it being to warm, a flat tire, a hang nail, you name it, on that epitome of evil incarnate - BUSH, and thus the replublicans, or neocons, or whatever the spin word of the week is.
For them, everything is Bush and the republicans fault, not realizing that the republicans (as well as democrats) have issues they themselves divide on, and Bush himself, when it comes down to it, is considered a moderate republican who has taken liberal/democrat stands on medicare, immigration, etc.
It's not to say some of the more conservative members are like this as well, but they don't have a personal punching bag in the form of a political leader to vent there anger. Bush-hate colors a lot of the topics here, and it is counter-preductive in the debates and discussion because it misdirects the topic to one of a discussion and debate, to one of barely hysterical, non-sensical venting.

[Amaznjohn]

Originally Posted by Mike from back east

John, agree that what you state are the conventional theories... when America was largely a closed system, making everything that we consumed... no longer the case in a global economy. I'm not buying Bush's simplistic argument. No new plants opened. But we did get some nice new burger bars, staffed by illegals in the kitchen....

I took economics, both the standard stuff and later on transport-specific and transport regulatory law. We are drowning in money, gots billions of it floating around every day, pouring into the stock market, housing, consumption of goods, booze, cars. No need for a tax cut to give people money to invest, there's so much money out there chasing investments now that the stock market is at an all time high as people seek somewhere to park it. Money is out there chasing stocks, real estate and other investments. The prices of these 'investments' keep climbing...has to if it's going to sop up all that cash. The 'need' for Bush's cuts was never proven... he just claimed it was so... as per your conventional wisdom, nothing more.

In this country, the rich get richer by various means, such as:
- bribing congress with campaign donations and getting tax breaks and loopholes as a payback;
- stealing it by fraud and illegal accounting (Enron, Worldcom, many more);
- hiring illegal immigrants and working them half to death for starvation wages, then kicking them out;
- moving our factories to the orient (see Intel story, above);
- cancelling health insurance coverage on employees and pocketing the savings;
- scamming the mortgage markets (HSBC is now eating $10B);
- leveraged buyouts with subsequent rape of pension funds (big game in the latter 1980's);
- bogus loans and sorry-assed deals that led to the S&L debacle of the Reagan-Bush era, we ate that too via the RTC;
- going bankrupt to escape unfunded pension plans and letting the taxpayers eat the bill (UAL, GM, more to follow); .

We're going backwards in this country. No new plants opened, they were closed.

Job growth is touted, but much "demand" is illusory, driven by a huge run-up in illegal immigration... millions come here which ratchets up demand for housing, food, and the essentials. Inflation is kept in check since illegals have no unions to turn to for a living wage and benefits. The small-business-employer-class loves it, they get rich on the backs of others who do our landscaping, gardening, cleaning, drywall, painting, cooking, serving, roofing, concrete work, heavy lifting, etc...

Revenues may have gone up a tad, but a $1B/day in red ink is a huge gap the cuts never filled. Revenue is up because consumers keep spending and so do the millions of illegals. According to the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, tax cuts do not pay for themselves as the Bush camp so fervently claim. This is nothing but the discredited Reagonomics of discredited David Stockman making an encore. See: http://www.cbpp.org/3-8-06tax.htm

Bush's tax cuts are nothing but a sop to the far right, which they say is his "base" (BTW, I hate that word). His father ticked off "the base" and this suckup of a president wants to appease them. That's it. We're hosed.

We had a balanced budget and a sound economy in the 1990's, it wasn't broke, didn't need fixing. Now we are "broke" and almost as badly as the old Soviet Union. The USSR went bankrupt from the cold war and withdrew. We have a $7T national debt and think we "won" something. Illusions & delusions abound. Lets all go out and buy a gas guzzling SUV and HDTV to prop up the economy and tax revenues... gotta keep those cheery illusions spinning...

s/Mike

Revenues up a tad? 11.4% in '06, 14.6% in '05. I don't consider these figures a drop in the bucket. If you remember the '90's, the .com explosion is what fueled the economy. When it collapsed, so did the economy, resulting in the 2001 recession, thus a fix was in order. Enter the Bush tax cuts, resulting in increased investment, job creation, and revenue. Illegals have been working in this country since the 70's and have had a minimal affect on the economy, mostly positive, yet also draining resources for medical care and child welfare. So, to lay the strength of the economy at the feet of the illegals is a strawman, and a weak one at that.

Like it or not, this is now a service economy, in a progressive transition from a manufacturing economy, with the increased need for a better-educated workforce and even more capital investment, not less capital and more savings, as was the policy of the Clintons and Carter. Fortunately, many of the Clinton policies were halted by the Rep. Congress, not so for Carter when we enjoyed double-digit inflation, unemployment, and interest rates.

If you've studied economics, I can't understand how you can ignore the strength of this economy, with it's high employment, it's low interest rates, it's high growth rate, and it's shrinking deficit and state that we're going backwards.