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Old 12-11-2008, 08:11 PM
 
3,292 posts, read 4,472,574 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by my54ford View Post
you disagree with my position but can't reply with anything more intelligent?
"I'm not a racist but... " isn't really very intelligent so you didn't deserve an intelligent response. Sorry.

Back your point up with something other than random conjecture and I'll respond with something better.
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Old 12-11-2008, 08:15 PM
 
Location: The Woods
18,355 posts, read 26,481,472 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kinkytoes View Post
Oh dear. I expect flaming. I hope this post will not be deleted.

European-Owned farm Seizure
-----------------------------
Decided to take back the very rich farmland from the European "owners" and give it to native Zimbabweans. In other words, he took the farmland that was originally "won" by white farmers, and gave it to the black natives in an unprecedented move. Even more daring, since the "owners" of the land were rich and well-connected. This happened in about 2002.

The International Response
--------------------------
First the EU and then the USA (during the entire Iraq hullabaloo) SEIZED all of Mugabe's funds, that he foolishly stored in Swiss banks and the like. They pretty much stole his money because they did not like his policies.
This happened in about 2003.

Then they sanctioned Zimbabwe. That means that the black farmers who now had their ancestors land again, could not import the items they needed to run the farms. In this global economy, the largest international markets were now CLOSED to all of the students, businessmen/women and traders in the country as the international punishment for Mugabe's Crimes.

This reminds me of the biblical story of Moses. When Moses says to the pharaoh "Let my people go. . . or else" and the punishments get worse. First, "We'll take your money!" Then Mugabe stands firm. Next, "The EU will sanction you." Mugabe still stands firm. Well, how much longer can he stand firm when his people are suffering? Not judging, just asking.

Sanctions for What?
------------------
Sanctions are made to punish, so ask yourself what the EU and US are punishing Zimbabwe for.

White friends who visited Zimbabwe before Mugabe's era said that in the restaurants where they ate, the blacks were treated as unwanted people. That made me ashamed, but I'm sure it's the same in many other countries. I also met a white Zimbabwean who told me about the problems she had doing her job at home. For instance, getting government funds for her research was impossible during the Mugabe reign.

I see a lot of judgment against Mugabe, so I wanted to present a different point of view. I think that many in Zimbabwe, Africa and the Diaspora in fact support the re-patriation of the farmland (The richest on the Continent to some accounts). I also think that living with no bread, but pride and dignity may be preferable at times to living as a despised servant draped in fine jewels and suffering from humiliation.

Should Mugabe go?
Mugabe gave land to his friends and followers, not competent farmers. The competent farmers were either driven from the country (whites) or not recipients of the land (blacks who weren't given land). There is no defending mugabe. He's a bigot and a corrupt man who raped the country for his own benefit. He cares nothing about the people there. He has all the wealth and land he could ever want, and a military to ensure he keeps control of it. That's all he cares about, himself.
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Old 12-11-2008, 08:23 PM
AVM
 
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And they thought it was bad under the rule of whites there......bet there saying different now.
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Old 12-11-2008, 08:25 PM
 
Location: Land of Free Johnson-Weld-2016
6,470 posts, read 16,391,935 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arctichomesteader View Post
Mugabe gave land to his friends and followers, not competent farmers. The competent farmers were either driven from the country (whites) or not recipients of the land (blacks who weren't given land). There is no defending mugabe. He's a bigot and a corrupt man who raped the country for his own benefit. He cares nothing about the people there. He has all the wealth and land he could ever want, and a military to ensure he keeps control of it. That's all he cares about, himself.
Whom did the original farmers care about? According to an article I read, they had turned over the majority of the farmland to tobacco and flowers for sale in European markets while most of the nation went hungry. There seem to be wrongs on both sides of this issue. I'm not sure simply ousting Mugabe will rectify the country's situation.(no spell check)
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Old 12-11-2008, 08:26 PM
 
2,027 posts, read 4,208,190 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AVM View Post
And they thought it was bad under the rule of whites there......bet there saying different now.
No one wants to be subjugated by a group of people who consider themselves "racially superior" and treat you as a racial inferior. So, I doubt it...
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Old 12-11-2008, 08:41 PM
 
Location: The Woods
18,355 posts, read 26,481,472 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kinkytoes View Post
Whom did the original farmers care about? According to an article I read, they had turned over the majority of the farmland to tobacco and flowers for sale in European markets while most of the nation went hungry. There seem to be wrongs on both sides of this issue. I'm not sure simply ousting Mugabe will rectify the country's situation.(no spell check)
I won't say what existed previously was a good system but the farmers kept the country fed (and exported to other countries). Racism is evil but, starving to death is probably worse. No one's suggesting just getting rid of mugabe will fix things, but it's the first step on the road to recovery.
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Old 12-11-2008, 08:42 PM
 
Location: Land of Free Johnson-Weld-2016
6,470 posts, read 16,391,935 times
Reputation: 6520
Quote:
Originally Posted by arctichomesteader View Post
I won't say what existed previously was a good system but the farmers kept the country fed (and exported to other countries). Racism is evil but, starving to death is probably worse. No one's suggesting just getting rid of mugabe will fix things, but it's the first step on the road to recovery.
What about simply removing the sanctions?
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Old 12-12-2008, 06:12 PM
 
1,175 posts, read 1,785,187 times
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GET RID OF HIM!!! (in the extreme...)

Bring back all the productive people he forced out (give them back THEIR land). Bring back those he forced out with terror, with ethnic cleansing and start the long LONG road to recovery....
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Old 12-12-2008, 06:36 PM
 
31,387 posts, read 37,032,019 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arctichomesteader View Post
Mugabe gave land to his friends and followers, not competent farmers. The competent farmers were either driven from the country (whites) or not recipients of the land (blacks who weren't given land). There is no defending mugabe. He's a bigot and a corrupt man who raped the country for his own benefit. He cares nothing about the people there. He has all the wealth and land he could ever want, and a military to ensure he keeps control of it. That's all he cares about, himself.
An addendum, farms owned by whites were, run and operated exclusively by white Zimbabweans there was an entire class of competent African farm professionals and skilled workers. If Mugabe had any intention genuine land reform, the he could have equitably redistributed the land to those who actually worked it, both black and white, but as you point out, the land went to ZANU cronies with no experience in agriculture.
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Old 12-12-2008, 06:37 PM
 
Location: Minnysoda
10,659 posts, read 10,721,455 times
Reputation: 6745
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Please don't attempt to try and persuade us that white majority rule was anything approaching a democracy.

But if you are referring to the elections of 1980, 85, 90 and 95, you would be correct.
Actually 1965 to 1980 was the period the world powers had the chance to support change in Rhodesia. The world dropped the ball again in '79 and '80 and what they have today is the result.... Smith saw it coming and predicted the result of ZANU control...

http://rhodesian.server101.com/betrayal_of_a_nation.htm (broken link)

ZIMBABWE (http://rhodesian.server101.com/zimbabwe%20rhodesia%201979%20-%201980.htm - broken link)
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