Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
: sticks head back in : Why don't you pretend you're speaking to investors? Many people reading your thread title may well be, you know. : collects advisory fee, abandons ship :
: laughing : My efforts right now are to help show how the best and brightest among the investor class, compromised principle and seduced Congress, then the least among us, to enter a devilish deal of unmitigated greed for a buck.
And now a question to you... Were there any points in the article that you would like to comment on... I'm curious about your reaction and where you wish to draw attention.
: doffs Admiral's hat with a flourish... pushes the letter in a bottle and tosses it overboard :
This is why I am skeptical of the bailout of the financial sector. I feel it is a sanctioned money laundering scheme. A way to get investors back some of their losses at the expense of the taxpayer, but still leaving distressed homeowners without hope. Both parties took a bad risk, why bailout one without the other? And if you don't help the homeowner, you dont help stabilize the housing market, the decline of which is hurting ALL homeowners.
At least the auto bailout helps blue collar workers (full disclosure, I was UAW member for a brief time), and a large swath of people like me. People trying to keep their modest homes, put kids through college (state school), save for retirement. Not bailing out people who want to keep their $3mil Hamptons house, preserve juniors trust fund and ivy league education, etc.
Class warfare? perhaps. It has more validity and relevence than the culture war. The culture war is what they want you fighting while they are busy picking your pocket.
Last edited by chauncy; 12-19-2008 at 11:31 PM..
Reason: spellign
... I am skeptical of the bailout of the financial sector. I feel it is a sanctioned money laundering scheme. A way to get investors back some of their losses at the expense of the taxpayer...
...At least the auto bailout helps blue collar workers (full disclosure, I was UAW member for a brief time), and a large swath of people like me. ...
: listens carefully : What do you think about the terms given to the U.S. automakers? What do you think about the effect of the concessions on the viability of the UAW? Do you think it was the UAW that put the Big 3 in the situation that they are presently in?
Before I give my opinion, I prefer to hear your point of view based upon your experience with the UAW, your knowledge of the credit crisis, your understanding of the mortgage crisis, and your familiarity with how the commercial paper market teetered then froze the credit market.
Business in the U.S. depends on commercial paper.
(Commercial paper = generally 24-hour loans from Wall Street and banks extended to businesses for a fee (interest rate); billions of dollars are transacted every day in America and this short-term funding mechanism is called commercial paper.)
Feds to Buy Commercial Paper to Ease Credit Crunch
http://www.nypost.com/seven/10212008/business/feds_to_buy_commercial_paper_to_ease_cre_134622.ht m (broken link)
Did your view change when you realized General Motors and Ford were companies listed on the synthetic CDO reference list?
How do you think this affected the liquidity of those companies in relation to health care costs and legacy costs/pensions of the UAW?
What do you think would be the effect of the elimination of unions in the auto industry? Would pay for workers in the South go down? Would Southern auto workers ever be asked to be competitive with the pay of workers in Mexico, for example? Is it possible that what has protected the Southern workers' pay was the presence of the UAW, tho indirectly?
I listened to the radio broadcasts (NPR) of "Another frightening show on the economy" (credit crisis in sept/oct), you provided and found it incredibly succinct, enlightening, and worthy of several listens!
Because I have to work on some things at home, I will listen to this broadcast and during breaks take notes. What surprised me was to discover it was the commercial paper market freezing up that tripped the alarm for major parts of the financial industry. One thing that I like about the potential of this thread is that there are many parts to global banking that we could focus on and still be in keeping with the thread.
I remembered that particular period (commercial paper market freezing up) very well because I was frustrated with tv media continually warning that if the bailouts weren't passed, people could not get money out of their ATMs. That started the quiet exodus of money out of the the money market funds into Treasury bonds and that in turn created a problem for commercial paper.
I'd better stop now before I start ruminating on economic constructs used to control national behavior regarding money. Thank you ahead of time, Chauncy, for giving serious consideration to the questions asked. I just think it is time for citizens to cease allowing financial debate to rest in the hands of Congress, the Treasury, and the financial sector.
Yes, it is initially difficult to educate ourselves but I believe with a group of sincere individuals willing to help each other, willing to answer questions, willing to piece together a coherent understanding of what happened, willing to tackle financial concepts possibly far beyond our natural inclination or educational level, we then take on bravely the responsibility of citizenry, for the sake of future generations and to justify our Forefathers' faith in us.
Sure, it's like a puzzle, but with many heads working on the same puzzle, we can then, hopefully, present a solution that has escaped the minds of those normally given that responsibility. Our cry could be "The responsibility for a solution is now mine."
(I know I've asked much of you and so as to not create a hardship, wish to assure you that if you only chose to answer one or two questions a day, I would remain eternally grateful. Thank you so much, Sir, for sharing your knowledge and understanding.)
Last edited by MadAtMcCain; 12-20-2008 at 10:03 AM..
: What do you think about the terms given to the U.S. automakers? What do you think about the effect of the concessions on the viability of the UAW? Do you think it was the UAW that put the Big 3 in the situation that they are presently in?
I am not extremely familiar with the terms given to the auto makers. My understanding is that they were given a bridge loan, to carry them to some future time.
I think the automakers get a bit of a bad rap. They have an enormous reputation gap to overcome. for decades now people have been asserting that japanese cars are are better quality. This may have been true for a while, but the it is not necessarily true now. I bought into this myth too (despite having been a GM autoworker at one time). I have found that Honda and toyota are very good at keeping reliability problems quiet. Honda has had a lot of trouble with transmissions for example. But I digress. Also, all of a sudden everybody is pissed at the companies for making SUV's. The darn suburbanites couldn't get enough SUV's, and Toyota and Honda make them too! I see a lot more toyota/lexus SUV's than any other.
I think most of the fault lies with management of the companies, not the worker. They are obviously not forwardthinking. It doesn't seem like they had any follow on products for when the SUV craze subsided. They have to work harder at creating products people want to buy. They should work to overcome the percieved quality gap. They should offer crazy warranties on their vehicles to show that they stand behind them. The fact that they have low market share is not the fault of the autoworker and the retirees.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadAtMcCain
:How do you think this affected the liquidity of those companies in relation to health care costs and legacy costs/pensions of the UAW?
full discloser again: my mother is a retired autoworker. She worked very hard for her pay at GM. She moved half way across the country when her plant shut down to keep her job. She abused her body to do jobs on the line that men half her age wouldn't do (and she is paying for it now). It will be an outrage if she gets cheated out of her pension while executives during her working years got golden parachutes. I know that is not an answer to your question. I am too biased to answer the question.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadAtMcCain
: What do you think would be the effect of the elimination of unions in the auto industry? Would pay for workers in the South go down? Would Southern auto workers ever be asked to be competitive with the pay of workers in Mexico, for example? Is it possible that what has protected the Southern workers' pay was the presence of the UAW, tho indirectly?
Obviously pay/benefits would go down. You know, 20 yrs ago, when I worked for GM, people would say, "it's a global economy, GM has to do what it has to in order to be competitive" (in response to GM moving parts jobs overseas and to Mexico). They gave the same response to the garment industry when it basically moved to China. I found those people to be singing a different tune in the past 10 yrs when their tech jobs were getting exported to India...
Edited to add: lol, workers would have to work below minimum wage and in working conditions that are currently unacceptable in US to be competitive with Mexican autoworkers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadAtMcCain
:I listened to the radio broadcasts (NPR) of "Another frightening show on the economy" (credit crisis in sept/oct), you provided and found it incredibly succinct, enlightening, and worthy of several listens!
I have read the article on synthetic CDO's again, and it does sound scarey. It gets me thinking maybe there is something to buying gold, and stocking up on canned food.
Edited to add: How did these financial wizards think this would all play out? What were they thinking?
I have read the article on synthetic CDO's again, and it does sound scarey. It gets me thinking maybe there is something to buying gold, and stocking up on canned food.
Edited to add: How did these financial wizards think this would all play out? What were they thinking?
Stock up on canned food, make sure your passport is current, get a variety of currency denominations of where you think that you would like to go, all sounds reasonable. Your responsibility isn't to convince the world but just to be responsible for what you know.
The way they thought it would play out is that they would be gone from the firm, etc. before the house of cards tumbled. Everyone knew this had no merit, but when you have so many banging on your door for a way to get them a better return than what they can get with safe investments, a way will be found.
Talking about getting out before its too late, here is one guy who closed up shop entirely to the chagrin of his business associates and investors.
In the OP, under European comic relief, the Brits honestly thru comedy, reveal what bankers/managers thought. It stings sometimes because of their honesty, but you can't fault anything that is said.
Since this is a short break, I thought to send a quick writing and will later respond to your answers to questions asked when time will allow me to give proper attention. Thank you so much, tho, for responding.
(I've learned a lot just from reading your point of view and can say that experience will always carry more weight than opinion.)
Thank you, Old_Cold, for your honesty. I really appreciate your taking the time to share your thoughts. Now go and enjoy yourself! :-)
Enjoy?
I won't be ignoring the situation and being old and cynical, I'm not sure how enjoyable the near future will be since I will be doing a modified version of......... "Stock up on canned food, make sure your passport is recent, get a variety of currency denominations of where you think that you would like to go, all sounds reasonable. Your responsibility isn't to convince the world but just to be responsible for what you know."
I do feel responsible enough to try to convince those near and dear to me to pay more attention so that they also can make informed decisions.
Even if those decisions end up being wrong, IMO it's better than playing ostrich and leaving it up to others.
Stock up on canned food, make sure your passport is current, get a variety of currency denominations of where you think that you would like to go, all sounds reasonable. Your responsibility isn't to convince the world but just to be responsible for what you know.
Everyones passports are current and I have 30 euro in my wallet from the last visit across the pond, will that do? I am eligible for Irish citizenship, I suppose it couldn't hurt...
Got to get started on the food supply, though.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
