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Old 12-30-2009, 01:25 AM
Status: "Loving life." (set 28 days ago)
 
Location: Redondo Beach, CA
7,140 posts, read 4,428,431 times
Reputation: 7016

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post

The brief history seems to have left out terrorist activity by Israeli's the King david hotel for example. The point being that Israel has no right to claim a moral high ground given their own history of using Terrorism to make a statement or force their agenda.
Next time read more carefully.

"The rival Zionist underground groups now united, and all of them, in particular the Irgun and Lehi ("Stern gang") dissident terrorist groups, used force to try to drive the British out of Palestine. This included bombing of trains, train stations, an officers club and British headquarters in the King David Hotel, as well as kidnapping and murder of British personnel. In Britain, newspapers and politicians began to demand that the government settle the conflict and stop endangering the lives of British troops."

I won't bother to ask you to read it in context to understand why Israeli forces felt it necessary to resort to this type of activity. I know better than to waste my time. Your side doesn't care. That's not to say that I condone all of Israel's actions during the course of this conflict. But the Israel haters couldn't care less about the timeline or facts, they just want a Boogey Man and the Big Bad Jews fit that bill quite nicely. Nevermind how Jordan, Syria and Egypt treated the Palestinians throughout this time period, let alone how they treated the Jews.

Last edited by Jill61; 12-30-2009 at 01:36 AM..
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Old 12-30-2009, 03:12 AM
 
Location: Pa
20,307 posts, read 11,509,408 times
Reputation: 6435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jill61 View Post
Next time read more carefully.

"The rival Zionist underground groups now united, and all of them, in particular the Irgun and Lehi ("Stern gang") dissident terrorist groups, used force to try to drive the British out of Palestine. This included bombing of trains, train stations, an officers club and British headquarters in the King David Hotel, as well as kidnapping and murder of British personnel. In Britain, newspapers and politicians began to demand that the government settle the conflict and stop endangering the lives of British troops."

I won't bother to ask you to read it in context to understand why Israeli forces felt it necessary to resort to this type of activity. I know better than to waste my time. Your side doesn't care. That's not to say that I condone all of Israel's actions during the course of this conflict. But the Israel haters couldn't care less about the timeline or facts, they just want a Boogey Man and the Big Bad Jews fit that bill quite nicely. Nevermind how Jordan, Syria and Egypt treated the Palestinians throughout this time period, let alone how they treated the Jews.
I am no hater. Nor am I an apologist. The fact remains that Israel has no moral high ground to complain about such tactics when they themselves have used the same and for the same reasons. That is my point.
I don't hate Israel. I just know that they can do better. They have a highly trained, highly skilled military. Anyone that says otherwise doesn't know what they are talking about. The IDF folks that I knew were worthy of any soldiers respect including mine. That does not mean however that I feel they are not guilty of being heavy handed.
The race card is a favorite card. Unfortunatly it only works on those who feel guilt about the holocaust.
I know for a fact that our good friends the Israeli's sold the secrets to how we build silent subs to the USSR. Guess all those billions didn't by any real loyalty.
This isn't about jews. This is about Israel getting a walk for misdeeds.
I don't think of the israeli gov as Jews. I think of them as a gov. period. The Israeli gov milks the worlds guilt for all its worth. None more so than ours. The fact is we didn't kill the Jews in WWII. Germany and Russia did.
I respect the IDF and can be critical of them without it being a jew thing.
Why the race card? There has been no personal attack by me against Jewish people. I fault our own troops when they misbehave. I have earned it. I can also honestly say that at no time during my service did I kill a child or a civilian. Most US soldiers can make that claim. Maybe we hold ourselves to a higher standard.
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Old 12-30-2009, 06:58 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
35,864 posts, read 12,994,063 times
Reputation: 4466
Quote:
Originally Posted by majoun View Post
The US has been pro-Israel ever since JFK. The Carter and Bush I administrations were the least pro-Israel of any since that time, but it would be more accurate to describe them as even-handed rather than anti-Israel.

During the time that Israel has existed, the only truly anti-Israel administration was Eisenhower's (i.e. the US response to the Suez Crisis). And yet Ike recieved a larger percentage of Jewish votes in 1956 than any subsequent GOP candidate has - even Reagan in 1980. The last non-Democrat to win the majority of Jewish-American votes was Eugene Debs in 1920. The last Republican to win the majority of Jewish-American votes was Taft in 1908.
Yes, this is accurate. Bush Sr is the only US President who has threatened to cut aid to Israel completely, but even that should not count as "anti Israel". He said it for a reason, and it had the desired effect.

Not to compare a US president to God, but even God critisized and punished Israel time after time, when they got out of line. Was God being "anti-Israel"? No.

Every US president has been pro-Israel and every one has critisized them for building the settements. It is not "anti-Israel" to point out that they are breaking the law. Those who accuse Obama for being "anti-Israel" for bringing up the settlements have no clue what they are talking about. The US needs to keep supporting Israel, but let's not be foolish and look the other way if they get out of line.
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Old 12-30-2009, 08:39 AM
 
1,263 posts, read 1,366,356 times
Reputation: 470
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
I am no hater.

I know for a fact that our good friends the Israeli's sold the secrets to how we build silent subs to the USSR.
You "know for a fact"??? Where's your source??? You don't have one because there is NO source!

It's understandable why some could think of you as a hater. I simply don't know if you're a hater. But I do know that you're a LIAR.
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Old 12-30-2009, 11:20 AM
 
1,720 posts, read 2,476,207 times
Reputation: 1208
It's rather simple.

Liberals are obsessed about supporting the underdog and hating whoever is on top. If the Palestinians had the more powerful military and the Israelis lived in slums then their sympathies would shift. Their pathologies and ideological quirks are rather predictable.
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Old 12-30-2009, 11:24 AM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
2,590 posts, read 3,524,735 times
Reputation: 1961
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jill61 View Post
Like I said, not one word you said is historically accurate or true. And liars don't deserve courtesy, they deserve disdain. If anyone should be embarrassed, it's you, for having the gall to spew lies while calling yourself a learned historian on the subject.

To anyone who would like a factual, unbiased, truthful, history of Jews in the region, the formation of Israel as a Jewish state and the various wars that have led to the expansion of Israel's borders, I highly recommend this site:

Brief History of of Palestine, Israel and the Israeli Palestinian Conflict (Arab-Israeli conflict, Middle East Conflict)
The statements I made were brief and you still can't tell me what's not true. It's simply that you don't like it. Here are the statements I made:

1. Israel didn't obey the borders in 1948. Right or wrong?

2. Jews considered other locations, in addition to, the Palestine region. Right or wrong?

3. Jews and Muslims lived relatively peacefully under the Ottomon Empire. They paid the jizya tax for being non-Muslims but it as well kept them out of warfare and gave them protection under the law. Right or wrong?

4. Israeli humanitarian abuses (as well as #1) are, in part, reasons that Palestinian 'terrorists' have fought against Israel, as well as the reason that Israel receives criticism from persons like myself. Right or wrong?

5. Criticism of Israel is not akin to hatred of Jewish peoples. It would be akin to criticsm of Syria being also hatred of Muslim peoples. Doesn't jive. Right or wrong?


Those are the only 5 statements I've made. Which do you believe to be historically/culturally unfactual? Name them. If not, youre an intellectually dishonest young woman. History isn't simply written because it's what you want it to be. You may NOT like #1 or #4 or even #5, but it doesn't make them untrue. In fact, anyone with interest can prove them quite fully.
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Old 12-30-2009, 12:32 PM
 
Location: Pa
20,307 posts, read 11,509,408 times
Reputation: 6435
Quote:
Originally Posted by lamontnow View Post
You "know for a fact"??? Where's your source??? You don't have one because there is NO source!

It's understandable why some could think of you as a hater. I simply don't know if you're a hater. But I do know that you're a LIAR.
Whoa I went from hater to liar. What was the lie?
Pentagon, GAO Report Israeli Espionage And Illegal Technology Retransfer (http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0496/9604014.htm - broken link)
US secrets 'used to buy freedom for Soviet Jews' | World news | The Guardian
I will rephrase something that I posted earlier.
Orig. Post: I know for a fact that Israel sold the secrete of how we make our subs silent to the Soviets.
I should have said Strongly suspected.
The point is our multi billion dollar bought and paid for friend has no problem stealing our secrets and selling them to our enemies.
This is no secret. They have been caught many times.
So this makes me the liar?
To be fair.
Things I like about Israel.
I visited Israel several times in the 1980's.
I was impressed with the strong Unity of the Israeli people. The pride they felt. A pride well earned.
I visited a Kibbutz and on the farm they had a burned out tank. It was a tank they stopped at great cost with molotov coctails. That took guts...
I was impressed with how they transformed a desert into a garden.
I genuinly like the Israeli people and respect their achievments.
They have overcome so much and in a short time. They built a military that is highly trained, skilled and effective. A role model in many ways. I can't speak highly enough of the IDF folks that I met and actually became friends with.
Israel played host to my unit and were a pleasure to serve with.
Perhaps the single greatest thing that I respect about Israel is the fact that they consider every single citizen vital and will retaliate against anyone who harms a citizen. We shhould have had that attitude after the USS Cole.
Perhaps my criticism is harsh but if it is, it is due due to the fact that I know how good they really are.
There is seldom a need to slaughter civilians. That ended 50 years ago as we developed smart bombs and super accurate missiles. Yes sometimes civilians are killed. Missile guidance fails or the target based on intel was wrong. As we saw in Lebanon that was not the case. http://electronicintifada.net/bytopic/electronic-lebanon.shtml (broken link)
http://www.britannica.com/bps/additi...nd-Gaza--Again
This conflict between Israel and her neighbors is 2 sided with both sides provoking the other. The right thing to do is for the USA to stay out of it.

Last edited by tinman01; 12-30-2009 at 12:52 PM..
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