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The proof is in the attacks and cells that were disrupted, all their fellow terrorists that were captured/killed.
It is indisputable that they sang pertinent, important information that saved lives. Of course, we don't hear much about all those covert operations going on around the world and all the attacks that were diverted based on the information they gave up. And you leftists try to use that to discount the truth.
You have no knowledge of what transpired. You don't know what would have happened if they were not subjected to torture. You don't know if the info was critical or not.
But there are plenty of ex-Military around that say torture info is almost useless and torturing makes things worse for our troops.
Only a sociopath/sadist such as yourself would argue that torture is good policy.
Or a terrorist....if you act like a terrorist , you are one.
Actually, he lynched them after stuffing money in their mouths (a testament that secret police were paid 10x more than a laborer). I wouldn't be so kind to any domestic secret police here.
Still, at some point, he ended up doing something 'not very nice', that he probably normally WOULDN'T have done, because of an extraordinary threat to himself, his neighborhood, or his country.
If you're suggesting we do that HERE, to our OWN government, I'm not at that point yet....but I do feel, as your father apparently did, that the rules of getting along with civilized people don't ALWAYS bear fruit when encountering the 'harder cases'.....and sometimes, you can get along with others, even if you have to 'turn the other cheek'....but sometimes, even THAT doesn't work...and then it's time for "Plan B"....Waterboard them, or lynch them.
Once you've gotten over THAT, of course it's back to "Plan A"...where you'll stay as long as is humanly possible....which you'll be able to DO, because you'll still be alive.
So you are saying, I can run a current of electricity through you without causing any physical harm or kill you but causes a great deal of pain and suffering (and it is temporary) and it isn't torture? Wow.... simply wow...
So you are saying, I can run a current of electricity through you without causing any physical harm or kill you but causes a great deal of pain and suffering (and it is temporary) and it isn't torture? Wow.... simply wow...
Sure sounds like torture to me....no question in my mind. Who are they doing this to, and what option did they give him, before they did what you describe?
So you are saying, I can run a current of electricity through you without causing any physical harm or kill you but causes a great deal of pain and suffering (and it is temporary) and it isn't torture? Wow.... simply wow...
This is what's changed in our country over the last years. It used to be that these pro-torture kooks knew to stay under their rocks because no decent American ( GOP or Dem) would tolerate this kind of sadistic un-Americanism.
Since Bush and Cheney came on the scene, they don't even attempt to hide it. Just add to the list of American ideals that are being debased by these hardcore right wing nuts.
Still, at some point, he ended up doing something 'not very nice', that he probably normally WOULDN'T have done, because of an extraordinary threat to himself, his neighborhood, or his country.
If you're suggesting we do that HERE, to our OWN government, I'm not at that point yet....but I do feel, as your father apparently did, that the rules of getting along with civilized people don't ALWAYS bear fruit when encountering the 'harder cases'.....and sometimes, you can get along with others, even if you have to 'turn the other cheek'....but sometimes, even THAT doesn't work...and then it's time for "Plan B"....Waterboard them, or lynch them.
Once you've gotten over THAT, of course it's back to "Plan A"...where you'll stay as long as is humanly possible....which you'll be able to DO, because you'll still be alive.
I'm not there yet for my own government yet either. It would have to get to the level I'm guessing the worst case would be, such as outright confiscation of personal property and taking US citizens without charge to military brigs. So far this has only happened once, I pray for myself and for America and her government it doesn't happen many more times.
Look, the situations are worlds apart. The AVH would take people in and execute them randomly. It was a soverign government torturing people. Basically, like Iraq was. No one would question Iraqi citizens standing up to their oppressors. What people are questioning is the torture of combatants, many of whom may not even be combatants. An American contractor was tortured over a period of time, testicles squeezed, all that fun stuff.
This is how it starts. If this stuff starts happening here, a lot of young GIs are going to die from people like myself who won't stand for it. It's a slippery slope.
So you are saying, I can run a current of electricity through you without causing any physical harm or kill you but causes a great deal of pain and suffering (and it is temporary) and it isn't torture? Wow.... simply wow...
That's torture. We don't do that.
Putting a bag on a guys head and making him stand naked on a stool is not.
Well as the word torture is defined in the English dictionary; it seems that water boarding is torture.
tor⋅ture [tawr-cher] Show IPA Pronunciation
noun, verb, -tured, -tur⋅ing.
–noun
1. the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty.
2. a method of inflicting such pain.
3. Often, tortures. the pain or suffering caused or undergone.
4. extreme anguish of body or mind; agony.
5. a cause of severe pain or anguish.
–verb (used with object)
6. to subject to torture.
7. to afflict with severe pain of body or mind: My back is torturing me.
8. to force or extort by torture: We'll torture the truth from his lips!
9. to twist, force, or bring into some unnatural position or form: trees tortured by storms.
10. to distort or pervert (language, meaning, etc.)
Water is poured down the nose, making the criminal believe that he is drowning, yet he can not drown, as a matter of fact no damage is even done to his nasal passages. That being said, the fear that they are drowning compels them to sing like songbirds, in order for their captor to stop.
How is this torture? I'd like this to be a civil discussion and not devolve calling people Nazis and such; just a spirited discussion on how and why they do or don't consider water boarding torture when no harm is done.
Of course, your description is not quite adequate. Read the Chris Hitchens piece about his two "rounds." You will no doubt appreciate the fact that he gives no quarter to the "Islamo fascist" types. And he's articulate enough to get across the gist of the stress that waterboarding induces. Then why don't you get back to us.
//
Steeling myself to remember what it had been like last time, and to learn from the previous panic attack, I fought down the first, and some of the second, wave of nausea and terror but soon found that I was an abject prisoner of my gag reflex. The interrogators would hardly have had time to ask me any questions, and I knew that I would quite readily have agreed to supply any answer. I still feel ashamed when I think about it. Also, in case it’s of interest, I have since woken up trying to push the bedcovers off my face, and if I do anything that makes me short of breath I find myself clawing at the air with a horrible sensation of smothering and claustrophobia. No doubt this will pass. As if detecting my misery and shame, one of my interrogators comfortingly said, “Any time is a long time when you’re breathing water."
//
Last edited by ParkTwain; 01-15-2009 at 11:49 PM..
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