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So can going on a date.
So can having a baby.
So can going to college.
The list goes on and on. And while I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you about Water Boarding, I don't believe that your above statement is a good argument.
Going on a date and having a hood placed over your head, tied or bound, and water poured down your throat and up your nose are just a little bit different and as far as I know, the United States government never prosecuted anyone for going on a date.
Lets say we deem it legal and acceptable, then shall we compensate every person in the past the United States has tried and convicted for using the method we now approve of? The next time a video turns of up some US soldier being electrocuted with a car battery, shall we rush out and deem this acceptable as well since the bad guys are doing it too?
At what point does one draw the line? We already have precedence and generally in a court of law, precedence sets later standards and to overturn it is a big deal.
The technique consists of immobilizing the victim on his or her back with the head inclined downwards, and then pouring water over the face and into the breathing passages. By forced suffocation and inhalation of water the subject experiences drowning and is caused to believe they are about to die.[12]
In contrast to submerging the head face-forward in water, waterboarding precipitates a gag reflex almost immediately.[13] The technique does not inevitably or in all cases cause lasting physical damage. It can cause extreme pain, dry drowning, damage to lungs, brain damage from oxygen deprivation, other physical injuries including broken bones due to struggling against restraints, lasting psychological damage or, ultimately, death.[3] Adverse physical consequences can start manifesting months after the event; psychological effects can last for years.[14]
I dunno, how many times have we tortured people and how many times has it come up with RELIABLE evidence? I mean you're going to have to tell me what the end is here.
I would think that if the head is tipped downward, the water would run off the nose - not up into it.
That said, how do you know that we have NOT gotten EXTREMELY valuable information, from captured terrorists, that has saved hundreds (or thousands) of American lives? How many terrorist plots have been foiled, partly because of information gained through Water Boarding?
Going on a date and having a hood placed over your head, tied or bound, and water poured down your throat and up your nose are just a little bit different and as far as I know, the United States government never prosecuted anyone for going on a date.
Lets say we deem it legal and acceptable, then shall we compensate every person in the past the United States has tried and convicted for using the method we now approve of? The next time a video turns of up some US soldier being electrocuted with a car battery, shall we rush out and deem this acceptable as well since the bad guys are doing it too?
At what point does one draw the line? We already have precedence and generally in a court of law, precedence sets later standards and to overturn it is a big deal.
I think it's fair to say that your "it can cause psychological damage" argument doesn't hold much water, because a lot of things can cause psychological damage.
Now... again, I'm not saying I'm a big fan of Water Boarding - or even that I'm thinking it's acceptable as a normal practice.
But I WILL say that if by Water Boarding one terrorist, we get information that helps thwart another terrorist attack and saves American lives, I'm ALL FOR IT.
I would think that if the head is tipped downward, the water would run off the nose - not up into it.
That said, how do you know that we have NOT gotten EXTREMELY valuable information, from captured terrorists, that has saved hundreds (or thousands) of American lives? How many terrorist plots have been foiled, partly because of information gained through Water Boarding?
I have no idea. But neither do you.
Because I would assume that if it was so valuable to the administration they would have actually presented cases in which it worked, also a bunch of people probably wouldn't be denouncing the practice? I'm not about to start trusting this administration's incompetence, they haven't really earned that.
Twenty-one years earlier, in 1947, the United States charged a Japanese officer, Yukio Asano, with war crimes for carrying out another form of waterboarding on a U.S. civilian. The subject was strapped on a stretcher that was tilted so that his feet were in the air and head near the floor, and small amounts of water were poured over his face, leaving him gasping for air until he agreed to talk.
"Asano was sentenced to 15 years of hard labor," Sen. Edward M. Kennedy (D-Mass.) told his colleagues last Thursday during the debate on military commissions legislation. "We punished people with 15 years of hard labor when waterboarding was used against Americans in World War II," he said.
I think it's fair to say that your "it can cause psychological damage" argument doesn't hold much water, because a lot of things can cause psychological damage.
So would you say being raped and going on a bad date would cause equal levels of psychological damage?
Because I would assume that if it was so valuable to the administration they would have actually presented cases in which it worked, also a bunch of people probably wouldn't be denouncing the practice? I'm not about to start trusting this administration's incompetence, they haven't really earned that.
No one wants to answer my pliers question
I'm not interested in your pliers question.
I'm also not interested in having you turn this into yet another ho-hum Bush Bashing thread.
The bottom line is that we do NOT know how much - if ANY - valuable information has been gained through water boarding. It could very well be that water boarding has actually saved YOUR life, but we'll never know.
So would you say being raped and going on a bad date would cause equal levels of psychological damage?
So would you say that being scared that you might be drowning, and watching your whole family get blown into little pieces by a suicide bomber are equal in their trauma?
So would you say that being scared that you might be drowning, and watching your whole family get blown into little pieces by a suicide bomber are equal in their trauma?
I dunno, does that invalidate your argument against the psychological trauma bit?
How about you actually answer my questions since I've taken time to answer all of yours.
Twenty-one years earlier, in 1947, the United States charged a Japanese officer, Yukio Asano, with war crimes for carrying out another form of waterboarding on a U.S. civilian. The subject was strapped on a stretcher that was tilted so that his feet were in the air and head near the floor, and small amounts of water were poured over his face, leaving him gasping for air until he agreed to talk.
"Asano was sentenced to 15 years of hard labor," Sen. Edward M. Kennedy (D-Mass.) told his colleagues last Thursday during the debate on military commissions legislation. "We punished people with 15 years of hard labor when waterboarding was used against Americans in World War II," he said.
And again, I think what we're not willing to discuss here is DEGREES.
Having somebody on their back, with their head tilted down, and pouring water on their face is NOT the same thing as elevating somebody's whole lower body and pouring water up their nose.
I'm not saying that either one is right, but they really ARE different.
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