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Old 01-19-2009, 11:54 AM
 
Location: NC
10,005 posts, read 8,993,200 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yachtcare View Post
Again, I would agree. But the motives may be a bit different. The Isreali's know they would cease to exist, it the US didnt back them, so they MUST play a subservient role to the US(man, is that statement gonna get me in trouble). The Palestinians are the real shills here. They dont have the brains to realize the game being played at their expense. Their real enemy is whom? Isreal keeps offering the olive branch, and the rest of their "brothers" keep washing their brains into attacking Isreal.
The only enemy the Palestinians have, is themselves.......But until they LEARN that for themselves, the cycle will continue.
I agree Israel must play a subservant role to the US because they need US assisstance and aid at this point to maintain their quality of life. I do not know how much of it is the Palestinians fault though and I am not sure as to which Palestine would be at fault. There really was no Palestine from 1948-1967 which is when they lost most of their land. Jordan occupied the West Bank and Egypt the Gaza strip and then Jordan, Egypt and Syria went to war and lost in 1967 so which is essentially when Palestine started as its own entity again. Only it was 2 Palestines radically different from one another. A more secularized West Bank that emerged from moderate Jordan and a radical Gaza that had been egged on by Egypt. The West Bank didn't play ball this time despite the fact that they were egged on by settlers, they have also more or less purged Hamas from there so in that regard I would say they are learning. Israel on the other hand is entirely dependant on having good realations and trade with the West. I cannot see how this helped them especially with the EU, which they need for trading purposes almost as much as they need the US? Hamas however is not a legitame entity like the PA on the West Bank. Like FARC in Columbia they more or less want war with Israel because it gets them more money, propaganda and weapons. I would say the really shills are the Palestinians who back Hamas, but are not part of it and to a lesser extent the Israeli government that risked good relations, particularly with Europe over a fight that seems not to have accomplished anything.

EDIT: I would like to add to the shills list the Bush administration that pushed for Palestinian elections despite the fact that they knew Hamas would win.

Last edited by Randomstudent; 01-19-2009 at 12:09 PM.. Reason: more stuff
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Old 01-19-2009, 11:58 AM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
31,777 posts, read 24,821,962 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bentlebee View Post
We all knew they were going to do that...Israel just has to defend them self and hit harder the next time!
And digging a deeper hole for itself, as it continues to test the patience of its Arab (Lebanon, Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Saudi Arabia) and non-Arab (Iran) nations. Arrogance can last for only so long. Unfortunately, it is the civilians who pay for it all.
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Old 01-19-2009, 12:13 PM
 
Location: Near Manito
19,495 posts, read 20,835,622 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
And digging a deeper hole for itself, as it continues to test the patience of its Arab (Lebanon, Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Saudi Arabia) and non-Arab (Iran) nations. Arrogance can last for only so long. Unfortunately, it is the civilians who pay for it all.
Apparently, though, the cowardice of the Arabs and Iran seems to be limitless. They seem to have no other tactic than to use the Palestinians as sacrificial victims of their impotence.

Or perhaps they just have a clear memory:

1948 Arab–Israeli War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Six-Day War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yom Kippur War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 01-19-2009, 12:43 PM
Status: "Elect a clown? Expect a circus!" (set 4 days ago)
 
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
58,052 posts, read 40,801,152 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yachtcare View Post
Didnt say any of that, you did. The ULTIMATE power brought to bear against the evils you mentioned, proves my point. In fact, we can call them evils, because we were on the side that provided the might, to write the history books. See, it really IS simple, IF you think it through, just...a.....bit..........further. Isreal has, right now, the might to make just that sort of decisive victory occur. They simply lack the will to do so.
Someday, Palestine may have the might to wipe Isreal's existence from the face of the earth. They're not going about it in the right way now. At least from what can be observed of their current plan of action. Their current plan seems like the "suicide by cop" phenomena we see from time to time. More of a death wish, than any kind of coherent plan to make their lives better, and move ahead in the civilized world.

Really? Just WHAT "ULTIMATE power" was brought to bear against those responsible for the 9/11 attacks?

And using your simplistic theory trafficing in those without guns by those with would be acceptable, right?
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Old 01-19-2009, 03:10 PM
 
5,532 posts, read 5,953,481 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
1) It was Palestine, meant for everybody. Borders were defined, and since then, Palestine has disappeared, looking more like native American reservations than a "democratic" Palestinian state. Pictures should tell you more than words could. Take the blinders off, look at the pictures, and more importantly, put yourself in the situation Palestinians have been. I know it can be a daunting task especially from a high point, but give it a try.
2) Yes, we're discussing a ceasefire, and we're on topic last time I checked. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out. It is the ceasefire our lame head president voted against, and now, suddenly we're applauding it? It should have happened, days ago.

As for issues, they are not going to go away. Israel is at a position where it can declare "unilateral" ceasefire. They have been blessed with a military might, with US tax dollars hand outs over the decades. The question is, do Palestinians agree to Israeli terms?

Don't you love it, when tyrannic government dictates life of civilians and expect them to obey, while gobbling up their property?

And then we wonder, why the rest of the world hates us, while we continue to fight "terrorism". With this attitude, the war against terrorism appears more along the lines of "job security" than a sincere effort to make the world a better place.

And Einstein was a lot smarter. He would not have fallen for Israeli propaganda as the dumb people have.

The Israel ceasefire may actually be a result of "timing" the exit of a puppet here at home. They wanted US to show up on their side, and managed to do so. Now, they are going to evaluate where Obama stands on the issue, and how he would have handled the situation. I attribute this uncertainty for Israel's unilateral ceasefire and pull out, nothing else.
1) Again, you and others don't seem to notice (or prefer to ignore) any contradiction in Palestinian reason...
2) After much thought - I put myself in palestinians' place. If I (and probably 99% of the readers of the forum) were palestinian, I would have been gone long ago from the hell called Gaza. If not for me, then for the sake of my kids. They are my future, not the broken huts in gaza... There is something about the the collective palestinian psyche though...
3) Israel "declared" a cease fire. Hamas declared one as well. Isn't it time to convince Israel to open the passages and provide all necessities? Isn't what happens on the ground now important? How do Bush policies change the current need for aid to gaza?
3) Timing of the military operation - you may be correct (I don't know) but again, how does it change things? There are ruins, lives were lost, destruction everywhere and at the same time, a group of "leaders" are sitting in a bunker, planing where the next missiles (to be fired on Israel) come from. I bet it's the only thing on their mind now...I feel sad.
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Old 01-19-2009, 04:25 PM
 
Location: SW Florida
5,121 posts, read 6,185,315 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burdell View Post
Really? Just WHAT "ULTIMATE power" was brought to bear against those responsible for the 9/11 attacks?

And using your simplistic theory trafficing in those without guns by those with would be acceptable, right?
We have coalition in Afghanistan, administering that power now. It is an imperfect endeavor, at best.

And my simplistic "theory" is indeed fact. If I have a gun, and you dont, who tells whom what to do? There is no discussion of acceptability, it simply is, what it is......In the end, the weaker will find what the stronger dictates as acceptable, to be..acceptable. Like I said in my original post to this matter... "Like it or not" and trying to argue the point is like arguing that the sun sets at dawn.
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Old 01-19-2009, 04:35 PM
 
Location: USA
396 posts, read 826,741 times
Reputation: 124
Ok guys.
I got this email today. My friend's daughter is doing medschool rotations in Israel now. It's a lot of food for thoughts.

Here is her email:

I'm back in Beer Sheva, it's kinda crazy here. What happens in Israel is definitely misrepresented. I was not scared to come here because I took the rocket attacks lightly. In reality, being here for the past day and 1/2 I guess you can say I'm a chicken. Today 2 sirens went off, followed by 3 explosions in the that I heard a minute later. I was sleeping and had to get up to get to the bomb shelter in 1 minute. I guess the anticipation of waiting that 1 minute is the worst part of it all. None of the American newspapers or internet sources tell you guys how many rockets hit and where they land. There are much more than I thought. Walking outside to the hospital last night was crazy. There was not one car on the road, and although it was a 5 minute walk, the whole time I was thinking about whether or not a minute is enough to run inside the hospital in my platform boots. 2 days ago a rocket injured 5 people, one of them I knew. It was a Russian nurse I had worked with in OB/GYN she was in her car when the siren blasted, got out and when on the ground covering her son. The rocket hit her car and unfortunately both the nurse and her son sustained bodily injuries, the son in critical care as the scrapnel went into his head (the only part she didn't cover to allow him to breath). Anyway, I did not mean to get you guys depressed, just wanted to shed some first-hand light on the situation. I am really hungry right now and want to go to the supermarket, but I am scared to walk outside after those sirens! I guess, this might be good for weight loss, lol!

Hopefully, this resolves soon! Stay tuned for more adventures.

Love,
M
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Old 01-19-2009, 04:40 PM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
31,777 posts, read 24,821,962 times
Reputation: 12162
1) How about you explain "it"?
2) What makes Gaza a hell? Can't wait to hear your take on it, should be interesting. Having said that, I doubt that 99% of readers here will walk taking shame and humiliation if asked to leave their land and run, instead of standing up against a tyranny. Do you consider self to be a conservative?
3) Israel's decision was unilateral. Hamas later agreed to it. This doesn't guarantee peace, but only to the delusional. Israel timed it well, before American completed its transition. As for Hamas, nothing helps them, and their cause, more than Israel resuming the attacks. Thats reality that I'm sure many of you will have tough time comprehending.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oberon_1 View Post
1) Again, you and others don't seem to notice (or prefer to ignore) any contradiction in Palestinian reason...
2) After much thought - I put myself in palestinians' place. If I (and probably 99% of the readers of the forum) were palestinian, I would have been gone long ago from the hell called Gaza. If not for me, then for the sake of my kids. They are my future, not the broken huts in gaza... There is something about the the collective palestinian psyche though...
3) Israel "declared" a cease fire. Hamas declared one as well. Isn't it time to convince Israel to open the passages and provide all necessities? Isn't what happens on the ground now important? How do Bush policies change the current need for aid to gaza?
3) Timing of the military operation - you may be correct (I don't know) but again, how does it change things? There are ruins, lives were lost, destruction everywhere and at the same time, a group of "leaders" are sitting in a bunker, planing where the next missiles (to be fired on Israel) come from. I bet it's the only thing on their mind now...I feel sad.
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Old 01-19-2009, 04:45 PM
 
8,315 posts, read 9,755,560 times
Reputation: 10607
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Old 01-19-2009, 04:48 PM
Status: "Elect a clown? Expect a circus!" (set 4 days ago)
 
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
58,052 posts, read 40,801,152 times
Reputation: 29727
Quote:
Originally Posted by yachtcare View Post
We have coalition in Afghanistan, administering that power now. It is an imperfect endeavor, at best.
But wait, surley we control much more right tha Afghanistan? WHERE is the right that should allegedly be getting us?

Quote:
Originally Posted by yachtcare View Post
And my simplistic "theory" is indeed fact. If I have a gun, and you dont, who tells whom what to do? There is no discussion of acceptability, it simply is, what it is......In the end, the weaker will find what the stronger dictates as acceptable, to be..acceptable. Like I said in my original post to this matter... "Like it or not" and trying to argue the point is like arguing that the sun sets at dawn.


YOU said might makes right, there's a BIG difference between right and dominant.

By your theory Stalin was right in murdering millions for no reason.

I'll pass Thank You very much.
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