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I took a quick look at the history page of the OBAP to see why it was founded:
Overview
For years, black aviation history, like most black experiences in America, has been relegated to the back pages of newspapers or to footnotes in books and journals.
Consequently, many aviation buffs have no first-hand knowledge of the black contributions to aviation. These contributions do exist, however, a very small portion been formally chronicled and documented. Because of this, American aviation is often perceived as an exclusively white profession.
So why else would " the organization of white airline pilots" be deemed as racist? I don't know, it may not but it certainly wouldn't be founded on the same premise as the OBAP since the contributions to avation from whites is already well known.
I'll take a similar stance on the last part of your post regarding "Of course, I'll now be labeled racist for typing the above"
OK, fair enough. I'll concede that black contributions to aviation may not be 'household knowledge' among white Americans. (These days, what IS ?). Perhaps there's a legitimate need for an "Organization of Black Airline Pilots" that has a genuine non-racist function. PROBABLY also there's little familiarity out there in 'whitey land' with Asian military officers, either. Or white jazz musicians. Or Hispanic basketball stars. Or whites born out of wedlock, Asians on welfare, or Jewish gangbangers. Or Asian rappers, or black nuclear physicists, or Hispanic country music artists. ALL of these groups certainly DO exist; possibly in respectable numbers. Yet MOST of these groups escape the notice of the general public; and therefore, they don't fit the stereotype that the public (particularly the WHITE public) wants to believe.
Whether this means all these groups should have a formal "association" or not, however, is questionable. If the public just doesn't "get" this stuff, maybe that's because the "public" just doesn't read, or look into things, or care enough to find out. How far one must go to "educate" a resistant public is a matter of opinion.
There are a number of OTHER groups not generally recognized by the public, as well....such as "Whites whose ancestors NEVER lived in the South at ANY time, before, during, OR after slavery; Whose families have NEVER been part of any 'power structure'; whose ancestors had a considerable struggle in order to be accepted into polite 'white Anglo' society; who have NEVER employed a "domestic servant" of ANY race; who have had harmonious and pleasant relations with blacks, up to and including acting as godparent for a black child; who have married interracially and have interracial children and grandchildren, who NEVER use the "N" word; who voted for Obama; who have NEVER owned, NOR displayed, a Confederate flag; who are NOT members of any white supremacist group; who TRY sincerely to understand those whose ethnicities they don't share; who LOVE to listen to jazz, and OCCASIONALLY even chuckle at a 'cracker' joke".
I can assure you from personal experience that THAT group exists, too. Just like the black aviators, THAT group is little understood by the public, too. Often "the public" seems to deny such whites even EXIST.or if they do, they're not 'typical whites', because they don't fit the stereotype. "Whites" are SUPPOSED to be narrow-minded, smug, judgemental racists; yet a few, surprisingly, are "nice people". Does this, then, mean that these folks should have an 'association' to bring their story to the attention of the public? Or should they (we) simply let the public learn at its own pace, figuring that those who WANT to know about us will LEARN, and those who don't "give a rat's ***" wouldn't care even if we TAUGHT them? I don't know; but I DO think it's something worth discussing.
And before I sign off here, yes, I fully realize I'll "be labeled racist for typing the above". It goes with the territory...nothing new here. In fact, when you're in MY position, you can pretty well count on being labeled "racist" for typing ANYTHING; and if you don't type at ALL, you'll probably just be called a "silent racist". Nothing much I can do about that; not until my story is better understood by the public, at least.
OK, fair enough. I'll concede that black contributions to aviation may not be 'household knowledge' among white Americans. (These days, what IS ?). Perhaps there's a legitimate need for an "Organization of Black Airline Pilots" that has a genuine non-racist function. PROBABLY also there's little familiarity out there in 'whitey land' with Asian military officers, either. Or white jazz musicians. Or Hispanic basketball stars. Or whites born out of wedlock, Asians on welfare, or Jewish gangbangers. Or Asian rappers, or black nuclear physicists, or Hispanic country music artists. ALL of these groups certainly DO exist; possibly in respectable numbers. Yet MOST of these groups escape the notice of the general public; and therefore, they don't fit the stereotype that the public (particularly the WHITE public) wants to believe.
Whether this means all these groups should have a formal "association" or not, however, is questionable. If the public just doesn't "get" this stuff, maybe that's because the "public" just doesn't read, or look into things, or care enough to find out. How far one must go to "educate" a resistant public is a matter of opinion.
There are a number of OTHER groups not generally recognized by the public, as well....such as "Whites whose ancestors NEVER lived in the South at ANY time, before, during, OR after slavery; Whose families have NEVER been part of any 'power structure'; whose ancestors had a considerable struggle in order to be accepted into polite 'white Anglo' society; who have NEVER employed a "domestic servant" of ANY race; who have had harmonious and pleasant relations with blacks, up to and including acting as godparent for a black child; who have married interracially and have interracial children and grandchildren, who NEVER use the "N" word; who voted for Obama; who have NEVER owned, NOR displayed, a Confederate flag; who are NOT members of any white supremacist group; who TRY sincerely to understand those whose ethnicities they don't share; who LOVE to listen to jazz, and OCCASIONALLY even chuckle at a 'cracker' joke".
I can assure you from personal experience that THAT group exists, too. Just like the black aviators, THAT group is little understood by the public, too. Often "the public" seems to deny such whites even EXIST.or if they do, they're not 'typical whites', because they don't fit the stereotype. "Whites" are SUPPOSED to be narrow-minded, smug, judgemental racists; yet a few, surprisingly, are "nice people". Does this, then, mean that these folks should have an 'association' to bring their story to the attention of the public? Or should they (we) simply let the public learn at its own pace, figuring that those who WANT to know about us will LEARN, and those who don't "give a rat's ***" wouldn't care even if we TAUGHT them? I don't know; but I DO think it's something worth discussing.
And before I sign off here, yes, I fully realize I'll "be labeled racist for typing the above". It goes with the territory...nothing new here. In fact, when you're in MY position, you can pretty well count on being labeled "racist" for typing ANYTHING; and if you don't type at ALL, you'll probably just be called a "silent racist". Nothing much I can do about that; not until my story is better understood by the public, at least.
I'll just be quick this time..You're plucking out little instances and very small specifics in an attempt to show some vague type of equality. Racial inequality in this country is systematic. It's bigger than me and you. It's built in. It started when Indians were deemed savages and thus virtually exterminated, Africans were deemed less than human thus could be enslaved and today arabs/muslims are deemed as all radical so we can detain and torture them without cause or fair trail. The system in which we live has a history steeped in racism and will take time to fix. Pretending like its already fixed doesn't help. I also don't believe you ar most whites are racist, just very underinformed.
OK, fair enough. I'll concede that black contributions to aviation may not be 'household knowledge' among white Americans. (These days, what IS ?). Perhaps there's a legitimate need for an "Organization of Black Airline Pilots" that has a genuine non-racist function. PROBABLY also there's little familiarity out there in 'whitey land' with Asian military officers, either. Or white jazz musicians. Or Hispanic basketball stars. Or whites born out of wedlock, Asians on welfare, or Jewish gangbangers. Or Asian rappers, or black nuclear physicists, or Hispanic country music artists. ALL of these groups certainly DO exist; possibly in respectable numbers. Yet MOST of these groups escape the notice of the general public; and therefore, they don't fit the stereotype that the public (particularly the WHITE public) wants to believe.
Whether this means all these groups should have a formal "association" or not, however, is questionable. If the public just doesn't "get" this stuff, maybe that's because the "public" just doesn't read, or look into things, or care enough to find out. How far one must go to "educate" a resistant public is a matter of opinion.
There are a number of OTHER groups not generally recognized by the public, as well....such as "Whites whose ancestors NEVER lived in the South at ANY time, before, during, OR after slavery; Whose families have NEVER been part of any 'power structure'; whose ancestors had a considerable struggle in order to be accepted into polite 'white Anglo' society; who have NEVER employed a "domestic servant" of ANY race; who have had harmonious and pleasant relations with blacks, up to and including acting as godparent for a black child; who have married interracially and have interracial children and grandchildren, who NEVER use the "N" word; who voted for Obama; who have NEVER owned, NOR displayed, a Confederate flag; who are NOT members of any white supremacist group; who TRY sincerely to understand those whose ethnicities they don't share; who LOVE to listen to jazz, and OCCASIONALLY even chuckle at a 'cracker' joke".
I can assure you from personal experience that THAT group exists, too. Just like the black aviators, THAT group is little understood by the public, too. Often "the public" seems to deny such whites even EXIST.or if they do, they're not 'typical whites', because they don't fit the stereotype. "Whites" are SUPPOSED to be narrow-minded, smug, judgemental racists; yet a few, surprisingly, are "nice people". Does this, then, mean that these folks should have an 'association' to bring their story to the attention of the public? Or should they (we) simply let the public learn at its own pace, figuring that those who WANT to know about us will LEARN, and those who don't "give a rat's ***" wouldn't care even if we TAUGHT them? I don't know; but I DO think it's something worth discussing.
And before I sign off here, yes, I fully realize I'll "be labeled racist for typing the above". It goes with the territory...nothing new here. In fact, when you're in MY position, you can pretty well count on being labeled "racist" for typing ANYTHING; and if you don't type at ALL, you'll probably just be called a "silent racist". Nothing much I can do about that; not until my story is better understood by the public, at least.
You do bring up some valid points. The point I was trying to make was why does it matter to people if there is a Black pilots association, if the association was created to address a need or a void that existed? Like I said before in my first post, if there was a need for a white pilots association BASED on the same criteria that the black pilots association was created, no one could or would call that a supremists organization. I still stand by my original point that people look at something like this too simply. Answering the question WHY such a group needed to be created would yield answers that I feel some people don't want to deal with. So they ask the simple, surface question withouth delving into details.
Also, where did you see that the black airline pilots association said that all white people were all the same and treated all blacks as such? I didnt' see that. Of course everyone knows that all white people are not racist and have also helped in the racial struggle. In the About us page for the association, it says why the group was created, if you are reading more into it then again, that is your problem that you will have to address with yourself.
Also, you are also correct in saying that if someone wants to learn about a certain aspect of history, then they are responsible for doing so. I would ask this though...what if that history was not available and it took someone to dig it up and present it? If a group saw this as necessary and presented information that was not well known or difficult to find, then what is wrong with that?
No one is forcing anyone to check out the black pilots association, BET or anything else, but the point is if there is a need for these things to exist, and they serve an audience or demographic, then what exactly is the problem? CMT serves a certain demographic, one that i'm not particularly interested in so I don't watch it (Unless they are showing reruns of Mama's Family) LOL
As for you thinking that you will be labeled as racist for saying what you said, i'll repeat what I said in my first post.If you feel that you are a racist deep down, then that is something you have to deal with. I disagree with some of your points but I see nothing in what you said that was racist. As I said before, "it is what it is"
You do bring up some valid points. The point I was trying to make was why does it matter to people if there is a Black pilots association, if the association was created to address a need or a void that existed? Like I said before in my first post, if there was a need for a white pilots association BASED on the same criteria that the black pilots association was created, no one could or would call that a supremists organization. I still stand by my original point that people look at something like this too simply. Answering the question WHY such a group needed to be created would yield answers that I feel some people don't want to deal with. So they ask the simple, surface question withouth delving into details.
Also, where did you see that the black airline pilots association said that all white people were all the same and treated all blacks as such? I didnt' see that. Of course everyone knows that all white people are not racist and have also helped in the racial struggle. In the About us page for the association, it says why the group was created, if you are reading more into it then again, that is your problem that you will have to address with yourself.
Also, you are also correct in saying that if someone wants to learn about a certain aspect of history, then they are responsible for doing so. I would ask this though...what if that history was not available and it took someone to dig it up and present it? If a group saw this as necessary and presented information that was not well known or difficult to find, then what is wrong with that?
No one is forcing anyone to check out the black pilots association, BET or anything else, but the point is if there is a need for these things to exist, and they serve an audience or demographic, then what exactly is the problem? CMT serves a certain demographic, one that i'm not particularly interested in so I don't watch it (Unless they are showing reruns of Mama's Family) LOL
As for you thinking that you will be labeled as racist for saying what you said, i'll repeat what I said in my first post.If you feel that you are a racist deep down, then that is something you have to deal with. I disagree with some of your points but I see nothing in what you said that was racist. As I said before, "it is what it is"
Fair enough....points taken. My post was mainly written in the spirit of rebuttal, rather than any burning need to prove a point. What I said was that if the notion of the existence of "black aviators" is one that eludes some people, then so be it. I know there are black aviators, (I'm sure you do, too) and I'm not sure I've ever MET anyone who explicitly denied that fact. If black aviators need to band together to 'make their case', then that's their right; my only point was that a LOT of 'demographics' are relatively un-celebrated; yet most of them don't 'advertise'. Ever hear of the "Navajo Code Talkers"?....their efforts were INVALUABLE in securing the US victory in the War against Japan in the Pacific...yet not one person in 20 'knows' about them......only one of MANY MANY examples of people; even HEROIC people; whose cases, and whose legacy, goes largely unacknowledged by "John Q. Public".
And yes, in today's complex and hyper-sensitive world of racial politics, I'm fully aware that my words MIGHT be used by someone to make the case that I'm "racist"; and FURTHERMORE, as you suggest, even my THINKING I MIGHT be perceived as 'racist' may, in itself, be evidence that I AM a racist, and don't even KNOW it...(if you THINK you're one, then you ARE....and if you DON'T think you're one, then you're in DENIAL...etc etc etc)
Interesting subject, and I thank you for our 'exchange'.
By naming their magazine, tv station, etc. JET, BET, Essence, etc. black people are basically saying that they can't see past their own race. Why not choose words that have nothing to do with being black? Black people keep themselves down and are more racist than white people IMO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NWPAguy
I can still hear a black friend of mine, during senior year in high school, complaining to me about how colleges were just blindly accepting her due to the fact that she was a smart, high-achieving black female. She wanted her achievements to be weighed against those of everyone else and THEN have the college admissions officers check her out to see how she compared.)
At places like the University of Michigan, an applicant needs 100 points to be accepted. Blacks are automatically given 20 points. Just a little FYI.
Quote:
Originally Posted by momonkey
Maybe the reason black, kids as a group, score so low on standardized tests isthat they are told in non-verbal ways that white kids are smarter so don't even bother to study. And what I mean by "non-verbal ways" is the ongoing refusal by liberals to end the affirmative action programs that address nothing but low scores by blacks. Everyone knows the tests are not racially biased yet blacks still consistently score lower that whites. Face it and deal with it honestly.
yeah or it could be that most black families are broken (no active father) and the black community has more children born, by teens, than any other race. most children, who are black, are born out of wedlock. Maybe the parent or parents just aren't respecting and valuing education as much as other groups are, such as Asians.
Last edited by At1WithNature; 02-09-2009 at 01:07 PM..
By naming their magazine, tv station, etc. JET, BET, Essence, etc. black people are basically saying that they can't see past their own race. Why not choose words that have nothing to do with being black? Black people keep themselves down and are more racist than white people IMO.
At places like the University of Michigan, an applicant needs 100 points to be accepted. Blacks are automatically given 20 points. Just a little FYI.
Now this is silly...Jet & Essence are words that have black meanings...Sometimes CD posters come up with some real gems!
Can you answer this question? Why was there a need for BET, Essence or Jet? I would think that magazines or tv networks would have saw the need for these features before the specific examples were created by people that saw the need. That question should have been answered before the blacks are racist because they created BET or Jet argument.
Also, Im interested in seeing the link that says that U of M black applicants are given a 20 point advantage, do you have it available?
bottomline is blacks feeling the need to label everything of theirs "black" does not advance them at all. In fact, it retards their progress. It limits them. It dehumanizes them. It segregates them from every other human being on the planet.
I'll just be quick this time..You're plucking out little instances and very small specifics in an attempt to show some vague type of equality. Racial inequality in this country is systematic. It's bigger than me and you. It's built in. It started when Indians were deemed savages and thus virtually exterminated, Africans were deemed less than human thus could be enslaved and today arabs/muslims are deemed as all radical so we can detain and torture them without cause or fair trail. The system in which we live has a history steeped in racism and will take time to fix. Pretending like its already fixed doesn't help. I also don't believe you ar most whites are racist, just very underinformed.
You believe most whites are very underinformed? That sure as hell sounds racist.
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