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You can't just 'turn gay' one day the next and 'turn straight' the day after that (although you can become white - Michael Jackson is a prime example ).
Who in the hell said you could?
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There are a number of events that happen in the body that we are not even conscious of when we see someone that we are sexually attracted to. Blood pressure rises, synapses start firing, pupils pinpoint, temperature rises. These are things that we cannot control, they naturally happen. It's called sexual attraction. I can yell that I'm gay all day long, but if I'm not attracted to the peoples of the same sex, I am not gay (personally the idea of having sex with a vagina is revolting).
On the other hand, through surgical means, you can make yourself Catonese, or Japanese, or Irish, or Black. All being 'black' or 'white' is is a difference in the amount of melanin in the skin. It's what you attach with the labels that have meanings.
And yet, there are people who choose to be gay all the time. Again, you could choose to date, sleep with, live with someone of the same sex and claim to have a romantic attraction and a romantic relationship with them. Who knows why, exactly? A non-mind-reader wouldn't.
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And btw, I'm black and I have no problem whatsoever with gays using parallels from the civil rights movements of the 60's. Oh the horror!!! The carnage!!! Throughout this whole thread you have downplayed the discrimination against gays and boosted up the discrimination against blacks. BOTH groups have gone through hell and back. BOTH groups have hand a plentiful handful of discrimination. The vibe I get from you is that gays never had and never will have had it as bad as blacks. I don't care if it's one or one million people who have been killed, refused, hated on, or [insert here] because of some trait that many consider inherent to their being; I don't care about the numbers, the fact is that the discrimination and hate took place.
I'm guessing you don't really know much about gay history, or your own history if you are, in fact, black. Not to say that you couldn't have still arrived at this conclusion -- others have -- but usually when people say they don't care about specifics, it's hard to take them all that seriously.
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If you really want to go their with this whole "this group hasn't had it as bad as us" argument, then the blacks have been riding the gravy train compared to the Jews. Since the beginning of the Jews they have been the scapegoat and the numbers that they have been murdered in amounts to the millions.
...not that neither you nor I can recall the Black community collectively aping the Jews' struggles against racism and discrimination or anything.
P.S. To the OP, how do you actually feel about gay rights in general? I know your position on comparing it to Black civil rights, but aside from that, what are your opinions? Just want to make sure I'm getting you...
I don't think gays are politicking for anything that would be objectively considered rights, and I think they misuse that term -- and subsequently people don't know anything about the law or what it means buy into it -- to garner sympathy.
That said, there are certain things I do agree with. I think the employee non-discrimination act should pass, I think they deserve some of the benefits of marriage through civil unions, and I do think there should be hate crime legislation in place to protect them from people who would do them harm because they're gay. Other than that, I think a lot of this is just flexing their political clout and money.
Really...? It certainly seems that you have been treating lit ike a competition, you have been whining and carrying on about how much more oppressed blacks have been than anyone and everyone else (which is a crock), and as Miu pointed out, some people would rather focus on the present and the future than dwell on injustices of the past. I guess you simply are not one of those people, you choose to be offended, judgmental and miserable instead of tolerant, gracious and happy. Sorry your life is so meaningless you feel the need to voice your outrage and offense at other people wanting to tread on your own personal civil rights movement.
So let me get this straight: you're upset because you have more in common with, and generally prefer, the company of gays over blacks. You sympathize with their issues more than you do ours, because you figure since the 60s was so long ago, and Obama's president, racism doesn't exist any more. So, we (meaning blacks) should be good sports and let the gays siphon off credibility from us because we should automatically sympathize with them. How dare we be anything other than blindly liberal and tolerant of any idea the gays come up with? Rhetorical question.
Considering the gays haven't done a great job at convincing the majority to vote for gay marriage, and they can't seem to get a cadre of influential politicians to go to bat for them, I'd say it would be in their best interest to at least try and play nice, and to maybe, just maybe, consider their methods before complaining about them not working. If MLK said to himself, "you know what? This is stupid. I shouldn't have to be non-violent, benevolent, and peaceful to get what I want. THESE ARE MY RIGHTS. I have EVERY RIGHT TO DEMAND THEM AS LOUDLY AND OBNOXIOUSLY AS I PLEASE! If they get offended, tch, that's THEIR problem. I know I'm in the right, so everybody else can kiss my ass" -- how far along would we be? How influential do you think he'd be? Malcolm X was like that to a certain extent, and it's sad that he seems to always get second-billing behind MLK.
Exactly! Instead of comparing miseries, we should be fighting ALL forms of victimization, discrimination and bigotry. No one group or cause is more important than any other, we all deserve civil rights. Beyond that, we are all of the HUMAN race and should support each other instead of picking out differences and being judgmental.
OK, well if we're all human, you need to support me enough to not condone offensive generalizations and comparisons that make me feel slighted. Will you do that? No, you won't do that.
Uh, you did? Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the original post I quoted, you stated that you could become gay if you wanted. Twas a response to what you said.
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Originally Posted by cnt
And yet, there are people who choose to be gay all the time. Again, you could choose to date, sleep with, live with someone of the same sex and claim to have a romantic attraction and a romantic relationship with them. Who knows why, exactly? A non-mind-reader wouldn't.
You're missing the point. You can choose to sleep with whomever you want, but if you're not attracted to that person because of their gender, you are not gay or straight. I could sleep with women all I want but if I'm not sexually attracted to women, then I'm not a lesbian; twisted maybe, but not a homosexual. As I said before, when you are attracted to someone signals go off in your body that you are not aware of.
There have actually been some instances where straight men will have gay sex because of the anal stimulation. Kinda weird but to his/her own.
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Originally Posted by cnt
I'm guessing you don't really know much about gay history, or your own history if you are, in fact, black. Not to say that you couldn't have still arrived at this conclusion -- others have -- but usually when people say they don't care about specifics, it's hard to take them all that seriously.
Thanks for your concerns, but I'm well read up on gay and black history. And I'm guessing that in your mind any black that is okay with paralleling the civil rights movement of the 60's to the one of today as not blacks? Switch outs? Correct me if I'm wrong; it's just the vibe that emulates from your words. And when people try to say one group's suffering doesn't compare to another's group because they haven't suffered enough, it's pretty hard to take them all seriously. Really now.
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Originally Posted by cnt
...not that neither you nor I can recall the Black community collectively aping the Jews' struggles against racism and discrimination or anything.
No, it's just the Jews (collectively) haven't belly ached for the pass two thousand years when they clearly could. They aren't still saying that the man (or institution) is holding them down, and they don't play the Jew card every time someone disagrees with their views. They create wealth for themselves and their families and don't try to act as crabs trying to hold their more determined members down.
On the other hand we as blacks (somewhat collectively) haven't been the scapegoat since the beginning of Christ (at one time in Africa we were a very affluent and skilled people that traded with the European empires of that time - slaves included). I still know people that say it's because they are black that they get fired from their job, when in fact it's because of their laziness and attitudes that keep them out of work. Many blacks that are able to make it out of the ghettos and hoods and that are able to provide for their families better than they were before are called boojie, switch outs, whites (my favorite), and other colorful derrogatives. Instead of being able to praise the ones who are doing well for themselves and their families, we act as crabs, clawing to try to pull other's down to their level of misery. And you know, misery LOVES company.
Then, you assume the entire black community holds your views that the civil rights movement of the 60's shouldn't be compared to the one of today. Obviously neither you nor I nor any other black can speak for the 'community' as a whole. We as a whole cannot even unite together as one body to raise the wealth as a collective group.
You've been saying this whole time that the gay movement doesn't compare to the black one because they haven't suffered enough. I can use the same logic to say that the blacks should shut their holes, cuz the black suffering hasn't compared to that of the Jews. You see where I'm going with this? Discrimination and hate against a group because of an inherent characteristic is wrong, REGARDLESS of the group and regardless of the number. Whether it is one or one hundred, ten or ten thousand, the number does not matter; the matter of the fact is is that ONE person was murdered, discriminated against solely on the fact of a characteristic inherent to their being. That in itself is wrong and should warrant the support of other groups that have been oppressed, discriminated, and hated upon.
[quote=cnt;7297116]So let me get this straight: you're upset because you have more in common with, and generally prefer, the company of gays over blacks. You sympathize with their issues more than you do ours, because you figure since the 60s was so long ago, and Obama's president, racism doesn't exist any more. So, we (meaning blacks) should be good sports and let the gays siphon off credibility from us because we should automatically sympathize with them. How dare we be anything other than blindly liberal and tolerant of any idea the gays come up with? Rhetorical question.
Quite a few assumptions here...no, I do not prefer the company of or sympathize more with homosexuals, my point is not that they or their issues are more important, it is that they and their issues are EQUALLY important...something you fail to see in your adamant poor me mentality. Being a good sport (as you put it) is something which makes life easier all around, but clearly you would rather be bitter. For the record, I did not intend to imply that I believe you represent the majority attitude of black people, in fact the educated black friends I have DO support civil rights for gays and for all minority groups. What do you refer to when you speak of any idea the gays come up with...? I thought we were talking about basic civil rights here, and I stand firm in my belief that each and every citizen deserves the same civil rights, period.
Considering the gays haven't done a great job at convincing the majority to vote for gay marriage, and they can't seem to get a cadre of influential politicians to go to bat for them, I'd say it would be in their best interest to at least try and play nice, and to maybe, just maybe, consider their methods before complaining about them not working. quote]
Play nice? That is what I tell my chihuahuas when they get feisty with each other, but not something I would say to another human being. Your condescending tone makes it very apparent that you not only have hang-ups about homosexuality, but a downright intolerance &/or hatred of it.
Last edited by luvmycat; 02-03-2009 at 02:31 AM..
Reason: changed text color on 2nd part to be clear
Strange - I never saw that ad here in San Francisco, and you claim it was one of their "main ads?" Do you have a link to video of that? Because most of the No on 8 ads I saw were very respectful, mostly just with notable supporters (Feinstein, celebrities, etc) stating the reasons why it shouldn't be passed... and then there were a few in response to Yes ads, where they debated the incorrect & hateful points made in them. Sorry, but I'm calling BS on your comments here.
Still arguing over this? Blacks and gays are equal in the sense that you all are human beings. Just as blacks can't help that their skin is dark in colour, gays can't help being attracted only to those of their same sex. What you also have in common is that when blacks were slaves, you weren't allowed to marry and be a family unit. Gays want to be a family unit also. So what if they can't naturally reproduce? Plenty of heterosexual couples are infertile and allowed to adopt children, use a surrogate mother or artificial insemination to make a baby. Plus in our country, we have the right to choose whatever religion we want. And gays want that same rights as every other US citizen, being able to take a marital vow before the god of their own choosing. All of usl deserve to have equal rights and to spend the rest of your lives with the ones you love. No citizen of the US should be treated as a second class citizen, especially since gays are for the most part very smart, well educated, artistic and productive members of our society.
At least we can count on them NOT to be on welfare with multiple children by different fathers.... are there even any gay street gangs? Clearly having too much machismo is bad (and this last comment is also directed at the Hispanics that are also not comfortable with gays). (<---- j/k!!!)
...not that neither you nor I can recall the Black community collectively aping the Jews' struggles against racism and discrimination or anything.
I guess you missed quite a few sermons in your time...
You know the lessons of Moses, leading his people from the clutches of Pharaoh...
Go down Moses,
way down in Egypt land,
tell old Pharaoh,
Let my people go...
The entire basis of African American liberation theology is based upon a co-option of Jewish struggles against slavery and maltreatment from Moses to Jesus.
My brother, please stop this needlessly divisive argument because it serves no constructive purpose. It has gone on too long with too many historical, political and moral inaccuracies.
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).
Oh the horror!!! The carnage!!! Throughout this whole thread you have downplayed the discrimination against gays and boosted up the discrimination against blacks. BOTH groups have gone through hell and back. BOTH groups have hand a plentiful handful of discrimination. The vibe I get from you is that gays never had and never will have had it as bad as blacks. I don't care if it's one or one million people who have been killed, refused, hated on, or [insert here] because of some trait that many consider inherent to their being; I don't care about the numbers, the fact is that the discrimination and hate took place.
(<---- j/k!!!)
