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Those who play the victim are destined to be the victim.
I think the American worker has been victimized by Corporate America, as have guest workers. That is not a dirty word, and only by speaking out to our elected officials will that ever change.
Well I wouldn't go that far. What's wrong with people who are in poverty seeking a better life?
What ruined middle class America are the greedy corporations.
They weren't looking out for what's best for the people, they were doing what's best for themselves.
So what's the solution?
Agreed on corporate America. I don't have anything against the people coming to the US for a better life- everyone here at some point did the same, or had relatives who did. I have a problem with our government pandering to corporations.
This is a trend that Americans are going to have to get used to, as more businesses are finding it more advantageous to use contract work than full-time employees.
As a contractor myself, I feel much more secure having multiple revenue streams than the supposed "security" of full-time employment. Whereas full-time employees can be required to do all sorts of things like sign non-compete agreements, contractors generally only have to sign client confidentiality agreements. They are generally free to work for whomever they choose and wherever.
Why anyone would be hung up on getting a full-time job when there are endless possibilities for contract work is beyond me.
You should have the right to contract if you want to, or look for full time employment (the kind that pays benefits, remember those?) in an even playing field. So, if it's not a problem for you it's not a problem for anyone?
Programming isn't rocket surgery, most logically-minded people could learn to code well in one particular language in half a year, if all the extraneous courses were eliminated.
And, therein lies the problem. You're only thinking of CS as programming when it is so much more than that, and that is the problem with CS. It's become watered down. People who take CS look at the computer as a "magic box" which you can take code written in a language, run it through a compiler, and let the "magic box" do everything. Many don't actually know what's going on inside. Hell, most CS depts. don't even require you to learn an assembly language anymore! So, what you have is a bunch of people who can code, but don't know why it works. They don't know the difference between discreet vs. continuous mathematical functions. They don't know that their code can be so much more efficient if they do a mathematical operation once instead of putting it into a loop. Ask a CS grad how many operations it takes to do the following equation, assuming x and t are defined ints:
(x-t)*(x-t)/2 + (x-t);
They'd have no idea probably. Ask them how to make it more efficient. The answers, btw:
8 ops... 1 for each minus, 1 for each plus, 2 for each mult, 2 for each div. The efficient way:
a = (x-t); //1 op
(a*a)<<1 + a; //4 ops... (x-t) is figured out, stored in 'a' so no redundant calculations for other instances of (x-t). Instead of dividing by 2, which takes two ops, you do a bitwise shift left, which is one op, and gets the same result.
Ops saved: 3. Not a lot at first site, but when doing this in real time, perhaps looping infinitely, it can mean a great deal of efficiency! Especially when you repeat these efficiency tips throughout a program, it can save A LOT of unnecessary computation. There are several other tricks to be efficient and speed up a program or two limit storage space. For example, a program can implement its own garbage collection instead of using a language's default one (if it has one... C doesn't). Java does this automatically, but most newer programmers have no idea how to implement it themselves! Why? Because the languages they use to learn coding (not computer science... I must emphasize that coding != CS) don't make you worry about garbage collection. But, what if the default collector won't work on a specific type of code (it happens)? This is truly scary. Especially if you want to work at a place like Microsoft, you know, the one that makes that operating system that everyone uses. I would HOPE TO GOD that people there know how to make their own garbage collectors, or else it's the blue screen of death all over again like w/ Win98.
Again, we churned out a bunch of syntax-remembering coders, not ones that were actually aware of the systems they were working with. We have the dot-com bubble to thank for that, and the dot-com bust to thank for CS becoming more watered down to attract people.
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rocket surgery
What? We perform surgery on rockets now? I know you meant rocket science. Or brain surgery. But, it's very necessary for the computer scientists to be trained as well as those disciplines. Computers affect EVERYTHING we do. If someone screwed up the code for your bank account, and all of a sudden, we can't get data for said account and now no money, I'm sure you'd be pissed. Or, if you're supposed to get morphine for pain while you're in the hospital but a hospital terminal misrepresents a code for morphine for that of insulin, causing you to go into insulin shock, and die, I'm sure your family would wonder why the person who wrote the program on that computer could makes such an awful mistake. Or, how about NASA looking for objects heading towards earth, seeing an asteroid coming at us saying we have 30 years to impact to prepare; we think we have all that time but we have, oh say, 9 years because the programmer didn't take into account the delays from his/her inefficient program OR that of the returning signal telling the program how far the asteroid was. Then, we're way behind making a preventive action plan because of it, and there goes mankind. It might not seem like rocket science or brain surgery, but it's fairly intricate, and is MORE than JUST coding. CS is supposed to be about understanding a larger system and how to manipulate/use it for productive purposes.
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From the things I've heard, the imported programmers often don't even have that much training, although they might know a specific language or two.
Again, I can say that I've seen the total opposite, but it doesn't mean anything. It's some subjective observation, possibly made by disgruntled ex-workers. Most of the foreign workers went to the same US universities that American workers did. Or IIT (which is pretty damn difficult... up there w/ MIT/Stanford/GT/CalTech for engineering/CS) Yet, somehow, the foreign workers are all-of-a-sudden not as great? I'm not buying it.
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Programming isn't rocket surgery, most logically-minded people could learn to code well in one particular language in half a year, if all the extraneous courses were eliminated.
Okay, I have a task for you. Find someone who goes to a top engineering school (MIT, Stanford, GT, CalTech, etc.); these are the most logically minded people you can find. Ask them what they thought about the introductory CS/programming class they had to take. Most will say weed out. I teach it here at GT, and they HATE IT! Test averages in the 40s and 50s. And, the questions aren't too difficult. By the end of the semester, a 60 is a B. A 70 is an A. Again, this is a top 5 engineering school, many times cracking the top 3, but even THOSE folks struggle with it when it's done correctly.
They don't pay similar wages than they do for American workers. They usually pay hourly and substantially less. These are temporary positions, and usually do not pay benefits. These employees are contract labor and are easily dispensed with. H1B workers have brought down salaries and the whole corporate culture/ employer-employee relationship. In their desperation to flee their poverty laden and overpopulated countries they have ruined middle class professional America.
Oh, America: give us your tired, your hungry, your poor. Make a better life for yourself. Well, at least for MY family... then we close shop.
And, again, statistics? I like numbers. I'd like to see citations to prove that claim. For instance, last year, 88% of our graduates from CS and CmpE found work last semester. 85% of Foreign workers did. The rest were unemployed or going to grad school. Most of those who found work were full-time. About 29% were contract. Average pay for a foreign worker: 71K. Average for American worker: 70K. Again, don't see it from my stand point. It ain't 6 figs, but it ain't poverty, either. I'm reading this from a sheet of numbers right now... I'll try to see if it's online for you to see later.
Oh, America: give us your tired, your hungry, your poor. Make a better life for yourself. Well, at least for MY family... then we close shop.
And, again, statistics? I like numbers. I'd like to see citations to prove that claim. For instance, last year, 88% of our graduates from CS and CmpE found work last semester. 85% of Foreign workers did. The rest were unemployed or going to grad school. Most of those who found work were full-time. About 29% were contract. Average pay for a foreign worker: 71K. Average for American worker: 70K. Again, don't see it from my stand point. It ain't 6 figs, but it ain't poverty, either. I'm reading this from a sheet of numbers right now... I'll try to see if it's online for you to see later.
But the below research says something totally different (although it's old).
Maybe the difference is your stats are from an entry level perspective. Entry level candidates will get paid the same, but not experienced people.
In my personal experience, my old coworkers were paid less. The company had a salary grade for all positions. One coworker was offered a full time job however they wouldn't give him Sr Programmer title even though he had the experience for it. They knew he needed sponsership so he had to accept the lower title. So that's another way corporations get around paying less to foreign workers.
The other thing I'd like to add, is that even foreign H1Bs are being let go at companies. At my old company, they let go a whole bunch of Indian contractors throughout the entire company to bring in new Indians directly from India. It was really weird. Every week, we'd see less of our colleagues on Friday. And on Monday we'd see all these new Indians coming in and starting. (The company was beginning an offshore model with a sole contracting company).
So these Indians who are trying to get a greencard in the States are now are competing w/ their own people who physically live in India. This leads to the conclusion that it doesn't have to do with Indians being smarter or more educated than Americans. It has to do with hiring cheap labor for the corporations bottom line.
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