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Location: The Chatterdome in La La Land, CaliFUNia
39,031 posts, read 23,020,628 times
Reputation: 36027
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boiseguy
conservatives don't care about the overall society when it comes to public policy, and are more focused on the self... Bettering the self, relying on the self, for everything..with the belief that if everyone did that.. the society would be good... Which is actually a good philosophy, but it cannot be applied to everything in a country of 300 million people, because needless to say.. many innocent children are born into poverty, and other horrible situations that they didn't ask for.. a public education system that ensures everyone is able to get an education is the great equalizer in a society...
A child born to alcoholic parents that don't give two craps about them... is still able to be educated at the same school available to the child born with a silver spoon in their mouth... Granted.. the silver spoon fed child certainly has the option of private schools... but all the more power to fund the public school system...
The whole voucher debate is so children born in poverty can have the same access to a quality education via private schools as afluent children. The system we have now is failing our low-income children and those who oppose vouchers want to keep it that way! Vouchers are NOT going to benefit those who can afford a private education as they already have that option. The biggest beneficiaries of the voucher system are those children who are trapped in under-performing schools.
The whole voucher debate is so children born in poverty can have the same access to a quality education via private schools as afluent children. The system we have now is failing our low-income children and those who oppose vouchers want to keep it that way! Vouchers are NOT going to benefit those who can afford a private education as they already have that option. The biggest beneficiaries of the voucher system are those children who are trapped in under-performing schools.
and the private institutions that are getting vouchers.... a voucher is the same as free lunch programs... but in this instance the tax payer is no longer paying for the kid's lunch.. the tax payer now is paying for their education..
Look, I agree that the public education system needs to be overhauled, but it certainly does not need to be scrapped in favor of this voucher program..
Thats like creating a medicare type system for education...
And when uncle sam is footing the bill... private education will become very expensive all of the sudden...
kind of like how private contractors in iraq get paid 3 times the salary of a military official who's doing the same job.. yet are being paid by the same source...
When private entities are essentially on government payroll... look out...
I think both systems have a right to exist...
but I know that private school isn't the answer always either.. I've had many students come into my class from private catholic schools... and they are behind what we are teaching..
the key to public education isn't cirriculum... its performance... we here in the public system have all the "misfits" per say... which drag our performance down.. I say misfits.. not because they're dumb.. but because they are the kids with no support at home..
I'll guarantee you all.. that if these same kids were given a little voucher to run off to a private school... you'd see it falling in performance testing as well...
You're only as strong as your weakest link...and 9 times out of ten.. its the parents fault...and not the public school sytem.
Location: The Chatterdome in La La Land, CaliFUNia
39,031 posts, read 23,020,628 times
Reputation: 36027
Quote:
Originally Posted by boiseguy
and the private institutions that are getting vouchers.... a voucher is the same as free lunch programs... but in this instance the tax payer is no longer paying for the kid's lunch.. the tax payer now is paying for their education..
Look, I agree that the public education system needs to be overhauled, but it certainly does not need to be scrapped in favor of this voucher program..
Thats like creating a medicare type system for education...
And when uncle sam is footing the bill... private education will become very expensive all of the sudden...
kind of like how private contractors in iraq get paid 3 times the salary of a military official who's doing the same job.. yet are being paid by the same source...
When private entities are essentially on government payroll... look out...
I think both systems have a right to exist...
but I know that private school isn't the answer always either.. I've had many students come into my class from private catholic schools... and they are behind what we are teaching..
the key to public education isn't cirriculum... its performance... we here in the public system have all the "misfits" per say... which drag our performance down.. I say misfits.. not because they're dumb.. but because they are the kids with no support at home..
I'll guarantee you all.. that if these same kids were given a little voucher to run off to a private school... you'd see it falling in performance testing as well...
You're only as strong as your weakest link...and 9 times out of ten.. its the parents fault...and not the public school sytem.
First of all ... I and other proponents of the vouchers system are not talking about scraping the public education system ... We are talking about choice here. If the public school is doing its job, then the parents would have no need to even exercise the voucher option. Vouchers would only be used when the parents are not satisfied with the school's performance. Keep in mind that afluent parents already have the option of sending their kids to a private school if they are not satisfied with the public school system in their area. What options or choices do the low income parents have when the schools are failing to educate their kids? Isn't education something that our country decided was a right to everyone regardless of race or economic status? Why are we so willing to allow poor children to wallow in these inner city schools where they have no other options?
Regarding government funding, the vouchers should be a set amount for each child. If a private school's tuition exceeds that amount, then it will be up to the parents to make up the difference. Proponents of the voucher system are not looking for government to fund expensive educations, they just want the SAME funding (or at least a portion of that funding) that's ALREADY allotted for each child to be made available to parents if the opt to use the voucher option - no more and no less. I realize that since you are a teacher (I presume this from your comments above) that the competition may be threatening to you and other public school teachers but remember, competition tends to create better products. Right now, our public school system is a monopoly (at least in the inner cities and other lower income regions). Maybe a little competition will provide the catalyst that's needed to trully overhaul the public school system so that our nation's children can be competitive in the global marketplace once again.
Yes ... there are problematic students that can create issues in the classroom which is why the "one-size-fits-all" approach that the public schools use is not serving these students nor the other students in the classroom. Since many parents have no other alternatives but the public school, this is one of the issues that you will have to continually contend with. There are private schools out there that specifically addresses the special needs of children who have disability or other learning challenges but if the parent can't afford a private school, then these children will have to stay in the public school.
I do agree that parents have their part in the education of their children but many parents don't have the time to spend 3-4 hours helping little Susie learn the material that she did not learn at school. We don't shell out all of this money on public education to have the parents teaching their child the concepts that they should have learned in school especially since not all parents are equipped to do this. Yes, there are some parents who impede their child's education by not providing a supportive home environment but most of the issues within the public school system is due to the public school system itself, such as mismangement of funds and resources, ineffective teaching methodology and tenure for teachers that should not be teaching.
I believe public schools should be funded at the same level as private schools. Then we will see if there is any difference in the results. Currently the biggest advantage is the fact that private schools can select out the disruptive, dumb and disturbed kids and public schools have to try to teach anything that stumbles in the door.
Republicans hate public school primarily because it upsets the class structure and the rich have to pay taxes for the public schools and foot the bill for private education for their own special kids.
If you people--yes, that's what I said--want to send your children to private school for whatever reasons ... fine. In fact, many of you should just take your kids and get as far away from "us" as you can.
But the bottom line is that you're not getting one thin dime of MY tax money to do it. You can p*ss and moan all you want about the Blacks and the Mexicans and Gays and all the people who dare not teach the false and antiquated values of White reverence, but if you don't want your kids going to school with the people you loathe, then either move from those areas or put your kids in private school on your dime.
Hope that clarifies things for you.
What part about public schools are dumbing down our students to the point that they lag the rest of the industrialized world do you not get? Seriously. Why do you INSIST on perpetuating and supporting a socioeconomic elite class by trapping children without the financial means to escape in public schools that are undereducating them? How does perpetuating a large underclass benefit you? Or anyone else, for that matter? Are you willing to admit that you are an oppressor?
Are you aware that tax money ALREADY goes to private schools for Special Ed kids? They have a legal right to a free and appropriate public education (FAPE), and if the parents determine that the public school isn't providing that, they sue to have the public school pay for private school and WIN. Are you aware that regular and bright students have no such legal right to FAPE? That they are trapped in schools that are undereducating them, something that is AGAINST THE LAW for Special Ed kids?
Just an example of the fallout from one Special Ed diagnosis - autism:
"Whatever the cause, the explosion in autism diagnoses has been a boon to lawyers who represent parents dissatisfied with the level of education their autistic kids are getting. Usually well-off, these parents don't hesitate to hire a lawyer to seek extra services or private school tuition. New York City's education department hired ten additional lawyers to focus on disputes over special ed, including the education of autistic students. In Los Angeles, which has seen a sixfold increase in autistic children in the last three years, the bill to reimburse parents' attorneys came to $3.3 million last year."
"So, what's "appropriate"? With help from a lawyer, a school district might be persuaded to pay for one-on-one behavioral therapy, afterschool programs, an individual classroom aide or even horseback riding. And if the public schools aren't doing enough, the parents might send a child to a private school and send the bill to the school district. In New York, sending a child to a private school for autistic children can cost up to $100,000 per year." A Costly Education - Forbes.com
And there's more...
"There are weird lawsuits. And then there are truly weird lawsuits. Into the latter class falls the legal battle between former Viacom Inc. chief, Thomas Freston, and New York's Board of Education over the right to have city money pay to privately educate his son, who has special needs. ...Under federal statute, parents (of Special Ed students) may request reimbursement for (private) school costs if they find that the local district is unable to provide appropriate education." I Want My Lawsuit - March 19, 2007 - The New York Sun
Do you have any idea what undereducating students with high potential, and they cut across ALL racial and socioeconomic lines (as I've already cited earlier in this thread, and are GREATER in number among the middle- and low-income because members of those classes represent a much larger percentage of our population), costs our society? Why do you insist on a dumbed down nation? Really? I'd like to know exactly how that benefits you, or anyone else.
I believe public schools should be funded at the same level as private schools. Then we will see if there is any difference in the results. Currently the biggest advantage is the fact that private schools can select out the disruptive, dumb and disturbed kids and public schools have to try to teach anything that stumbles in the door.
Republicans hate public school primarily because it upsets the class structure and the rich have to pay taxes for the public schools and foot the bill for private education for their own special kids.
I hope you realize that many people support school choice because NOT doing so - advocating the continuation of trapping kids in schools that are undereducating them - preserves the very class structure you claim that Republicans want to support. Therefore, anyone who opposes school choice can count themselves among those who don't want to upset the class structure.
Ta da - you're a Republican, according to your own definition above!
I believe public schools should be funded at the same level as private schools. Then we will see if there is any difference in the results. Currently the biggest advantage is the fact that private schools can select out the disruptive, dumb and disturbed kids and public schools have to try to teach anything that stumbles in the door.
Republicans hate public school primarily because it upsets the class structure and the rich have to pay taxes for the public schools and foot the bill for private education for their own special kids.
And I want the government to fund privately-owned media outlets so that news and information isn't presented in a way that I don't approve of.
My rationale? To "see if there is any difference in results". See what a slippery slope that becomes?
What part about public schools are dumbing down our students to the point that they lag the rest of the industrialized world do you not get? Seriously. Why do you INSIST on perpetuating and supporting a socioeconomic elite class by trapping children without the financial means to escape in public schools that are undereducating them? How does perpetuating a large underclass benefit you? Or anyone else, for that matter? Are you willing to admit that you are an oppressor?
Well then as long as we're using our tax money, why don't we simply relocate the oppressed and trapped families to the commuties where the good schools already are? That way we kill two birds with one stone: the kids are in better schools, and the families are no longer in the bad neighborhoods with the high crime and bad schools.
And I want the government to fund privately-owned media outlets so that news and information isn't presented in a way that I don't approve of.
My rationale? To "see if there is any difference in results". See what a slippery slope that becomes?
Not the same thing at all. Taxes are not collected from you to fund the media outlets, with the possible exception of PBS/NPR, and listening to/watching media is not mandated by law.
Well then as long as we're using our tax money, why don't we simply relocate the oppressed and trapped families to the commuties where the good schools already are? That way we kill two birds with one stone: the kids are in better schools, and the families are no longer in the bad neighborhoods with the high crime and bad schools.
Isn't that already done with Section 8 housing? It still isn't meeting the need for a better education for ALL of the students who wish to pursue such. High-priced neighborhood suburban kids are being undereducated, too. Where do you suggest they go?
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