Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Problem is... there is choice.. but if you want something more than the public system.. you should have to pay for it like everyone else...
bleeding the public system of funding.. because someone is sitting down and calculating the exact amount given towards your child, so that you can take to a private school is absurd..
Lets think about this for a minute..
Vouchers.. essentially are Publicly funding the privatization of education in america
that is an oxymoron...
The ends don't justify the means on this issue... I'm sorry
Thirty-nine years ago, I and three other children were the first to integrate an all-white suburban public school. Few of our classmates (or parents, educators or administrators for that matter) were all that interested in being class-blind, race-blind or meritocratic. So of course I see the value.
I went to a "better" public school on the taxpayers' dime, as did all the other White kids. Now, had your idea of vouchers been the order of the day, the goal posts of better education would have been continually moved. Why? Because those same adults who didn't want me and mine at their school would have fled to a private school--using my parents' tax money--where they would have had every right to exclude me.
That was then, this is now. How would that be possible now, given Brown vs BoE? Doesn't that preclude schools that practice racial segregation from receiving public funds? If some seek racial segregation, and such a school is chosen, it's on their own dime - not taxpayer money.
Problem is... there is choice.. but if you want something more than the public system.. you should have to pay for it like everyone else...
bleeding the public system of funding.. because someone is sitting down and calculating the exact amount given towards your child, so that you can take to a private school is absurd..
Lets think about this for a minute..
Vouchers.. essentially are Publicly funding the privatization of education in america
that is an oxymoron...
...Not when there's a public/private mix of choices available. School choice of public or private, whichever will provide an appropriate to the student value-added education, is far less absurd than continuing to waste potential.
We all know your position on this - now let's hear you defend the wasted academic/intellectual potential in the public schools.
That was then, this is now. How would that be possible now, given Brown vs BoE? Doesn't that preclude schools that practice racial segregation from receiving public funds? If some seek racial segregation, and such a school is chosen, it's on their own dime - not taxpayer money.
How is that possible?? Come on, don't feign naivete.
Any neighborhood can become "coincidentally" homogenous if the people want it. And when the neighborhoods become "coincidentally" homogenous, so do the public schools. Now, if private citizens are funding this "coincidental" homogeneity, then so be it. But the government cannot and will not fund any "coincidental" homogeneity--neighborhoods or public schools.
...Not when there's a public/private mix of choices available. School choice of public or private, whichever will provide an appropriate to the student value-added education, is far less absurd than continuing to waste potential.
We all know your position on this - now let's hear you defend the wasted academic/intellectual potential in the public schools.
The waste isn't totally the result of the education system.. it's parents too..
They don't push their kids to take higher courses..THAT DO EXIST....Seems your basis of performance would be solved if we just upped the standards.. and let all the failures fall way the wayside...but we have to remember these are children... and not factory workers...
the waste doesn't come from programs and resources not being available to high achieving students.. I've said this over and over.. IT EXISTS...
but very few take it on.. because parents don't push them to do so... and because it puts a cramp on their social circles...
I am fortunate to be in a school district where 2 students recently have gotten perfect scores on their SAT's... I don't know how much better a student can do than that... and you know what.. both of these students have guidance at home, and have been involved in every Advanced Placement class our district offers...American SAT scores are accepted and valued around the world as a standard.. I know this first hand, because I went to university in Australia and my SAT score was used in granting acceptance into the school.. A perfect SAT score would get you into any university in the world....
Mind you.. those AP classes are not required of everyone to simply graduate from high school... but they will prove valuable when trying to get into a college...
I use to live in australia, and in their high school equivelent..(what they call high school is more like our jr high) At high school age (16-18) students are seperated into acedemic and TAFE schools...based on their performance and personal choice... Acedemic geared schooling is for high performers who wish to test into university... where as TAFE is where 16 year olds go into coursework where they learn a skill or trade...
How is that possible?? Come on, don't feign naivete.
Any neighborhood can become "coincidentally" homogenous if the people want it. And when the neighborhoods become "coincidentally" homogenous, so do the public schools. Now, if private citizens are funding this "coincidental" homogeneity, then so be it. But the government cannot and will not fund any "coincidental" homogeneity--neighborhoods or public schools.
NO PUBLIC FUNDS FOR PRIVATE SCHOOLS!
Racially homogeneous public schools, depending on their local demographics, are already publicly funded so that kind of blows your argument. Racially homogeneous private schools are a different matter because they usually don't have residential boundaries. If private schools do, in fact, discriminate by race, they receive no taxpayer money. Where's the problem?
Racially homogeneous public schools, depending on their local demographics, are already publicly funded so that kind of blows your argument. Racially homogeneous private schools are a different matter because they usually don't have residential boundaries. If private schools do, in fact, discriminate by race, they receive no taxpayer money. Where's the problem?
because public schools are all inclusive... and private schools can dictate who is accepted and who isn't...
Also, if the best private school is 40 miles out in suburbia.. and no way for a poor inner city child to get there.... there is a problem...
the private schools will create more homogeneous schools that reflect the area they are in... There are programs where inner city kids are bussed out to suburban schools that are better performing... Put a private entity in charge of it all.. and you will certainly see such programs become non-existant.. Not necessarily because they want to keep anyone out.. but because of costs.. and then by default... the problems that do exist now.. will become exponentially worse..
its more than apparent that you have an axe to grind with the public school system... My question for you is... do you have children? if so.. what are their ages? and what are the important issues that you care about for them specifically? Lets leave all the baggage out of this.. and talk about some substance.. rather than ideologies... I actually am curious about your personal situation regarding schools in america...
I challenge parents to get involved and attend my parent/teacher conferences.. but sadly only about 30 percent show up...
I'd like to hear some personal information.. without getting TOO personal if you know what I mean...
Believe it or not.. there is middle ground and mutual understanding to be had... and the only way things can change is with dialog.. but you've got to put the attitude and grinding axe away.. before we can get anywhere....
The waste isn't totally the result of the education system.. it's parents too..
They don't push their kids to take higher courses..THAT DO EXIST....Seems your basis of performance would be solved if we just upped the standards..
No. Give parents/students the choice to pursue a more rigorous education than our public schools provide. Those who have the issues you've cited above are hardly likely to be clamoring for that opportunity, but there are those who are desperately seeking it but don't have the financial resources to pay for private school.
Quote:
...and let all the failures fall way the wayside...but we have to remember these are children... and not factory workers...
So, why are they educated as such in the public schools? Why are some allowed to slow the progress of others? Who does that benefit?
Quote:
...the waste doesn't come from programs and resources not being available to high achieving students.. I've said this over and over.. IT EXISTS...
Yes, it exists, but it isn't as advanced as what is provided to students in all the other countries that outperform the U.S. That was confirmed in the TIMSS analysis. We're undereducating those top students even with the programs and resources you cite - wasted potential.
Quote:
but very few take it on.. because parents don't push them to do so... and because it puts a cramp on their social circles...
That's some students, not all. Where's the top TIMSS and top PISA equivalent for parents/students who want to pursue such? It doesn't exist in the U.S. We provide less rigorous education to our top students than do other countries.
Quote:
I am fortunate to be in a school district where 2 students recently have gotten perfect scores on their SAT's... I don't know how much better a student can do than that... and you know what.. both of these students have guidance at home, and have been involved in every Advanced Placement class our district offers...American SAT scores are accepted and valued around the world as a standard.. I know this first hand, because I went to university in Australia and my SAT score was used in granting acceptance into the school.. A perfect SAT score would get you into any university in the world....
Mind you.. those AP classes are not required of everyone to simply graduate from high school... but they will prove valuable when trying to get into a college...
That's all well and good, but did you read the pertinent section from the Value-Added article?
"The [current] testing regimes, and probably most people, assume that good schools are those with students who have high test scores and bad schools are those with students who have low test scores. But that isn’t entirely true. Not all students enter a school at the same level. A school that admits students with low scores and raises them up to average is better than one that admits high-scoring students and merely keeps them at the same level. Ultimately, the best way to measure school quality, or teacher quality for that matter, is to determine how much they change their students’ test scores each year. This is nothing more than the simplest and most direct way to measure how much students are learning. This approach is called “value-added,” because it focuses on how much value a school or a teacher is adding to what students [already] bring with them. ...are the children in the schools with the highest scores actually learning more than those in the schools with the lowest? Not if the high-scoring schools are just taking in children with the highest IQs from the most enriched environments and simply spitting them out at the same advanced levels years down the road." http://www.ppionline.org/documents/Value_Added_Testing.pdf
How do you know that those high scoring students actually learned as much as they could have? Do you have a value-added measurement that proves such?
Quote:
I use to live in australia, and in their high school equivelent..(what they call high school is more like our jr high) At high school age (16-18) students are seperated into acedemic and TAFE schools...based on their performance and personal choice... Acedemic geared schooling is for high performers who wish to test into university... where as TAFE is where 16 year olds go into coursework where they learn a skill or trade...
The countries who have this type of a system outperform the U.S. on international comparisons, even though they test their academic students AND their vocational students. Given that fact, and the fact that it's already been established that the U.S. schools have less rigorous courses than their international peers, and public schools refuse to do anything about just those two problems, let alone all of the other problems plaguing the system, why would you rule out the ability of any student to seek additional rigor and challenge elsewhere? Wouldn't a better education for the money be a better bargain for the taxpayer?
Racially homogeneous public schools, depending on their local demographics, are already publicly funded so that kind of blows your argument. Racially homogeneous private schools are a different matter because they usually don't have residential boundaries. If private schools do, in fact, discriminate by race, they receive no taxpayer money. Where's the problem?
My argument's not "blown", as you merely recited what I already said:
Quote:
Any neighborhood can become "coincidentally" homogenous if the people want it. And when the neighborhoods become "coincidentally" homogenous, so do the public schools. Now, if private citizens are funding this "coincidental" homogeneity, then so be it.
What you cannot refute is that ethnically/racially/economically homogenous schools who want to remain that way, have no business receiving public funds.
Not all private schools discriminate. But some do. And if that's what they want to do, that's their business. But they're not getting our tax dollars.
running start students that are off at community colleges and universities taking courses are not included in the testing banks at the high school level.. because they are not at the high school taking their classes... Running Start is available to every student.. and tax dollars that go to the high school normally are shifted to the PUBLIC higher education institution on their behalf... IT WORKS.. ITS THERE.. But the result is not being part of the high school "experience" as much because they aren't there.. and that alone goes back to what I'm saying about the social disconnect.. when faced with that choice.. Many students that do have potential.. stay behind and take lame classes at the high school.. just so they can remain part of the "experience" with their friends..
I think many of the problems you speak of can be addressed and changed if teachers were empowered more..
I certainly do the best that I can.. but when parents have your hands tied behind your back.. and administrators have a gag in your mouth.. and you're expected to produce results.... surely you can see the problem?
Lastly, you still haven't answered my question about your personal situation, kids etc.. You kind of started dismissing everything i said, and ignored my inquiry... Do you really care about the issue? or are you just on a political high when trashing on the public school system?? You're beginning to make me wonder...
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
