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Old 02-24-2009, 08:42 PM
 
Location: South Seattle Suburbs
2,663 posts, read 3,604,510 times
Reputation: 1567
Quote:
Originally Posted by teatime View Post
Well, as someone who deals with a disabling, irritating, incurable disease, I'm quite fed up with science and randomness, LOL. I'm grateful that my parents raised me in a faith and that I took the time to learn and grow more in that faith as an adult. Without it, I'd be extraordinarily depressed.

By science's and society's standards, I've become a useless failure because I'm ill, can no longer work, and science can't cure me. But through the eyes of faith and spirituality, I have worth and am unconditionally loved. That's a great thing to remember! I guess someone in my position magnifies all that science doesn't know and all that scientists are unable to do.
So, let me try to follow your logic.

Your God can do everything ... so much more than these puny scientists can.

And your God loves you unconditionally.

So if God can do anything and loves you so much, why hasn't he healed you yet?

Frankly, I'd be a little miffed.

 
Old 02-24-2009, 08:45 PM
 
Location: South Seattle Suburbs
2,663 posts, read 3,604,510 times
Reputation: 1567
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonrise View Post
Discuss.
I don't see how it takes "great faith" to lack a belief in something for which there is neither evidence nor need. People used to think volcanoes, earthquakes, and lightning were signs that the gods were angry. We'd laugh at someone who thought those things today. Yet supernatural belief persists, in light of our ever-advancing scientific knowledge.

Does it take "great faith" to not believe in unicorns and leprechauns? Same principle.
 
Old 02-24-2009, 08:48 PM
 
Location: Texas
8,063 posts, read 10,973,389 times
Reputation: 3521
Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
Is it the fear of loneliness then and the stark realization of our own limitations that should somehow compel a belief in that which we otherwise recognize to be beyond the pale of reality? Are we so quick to sell ourselves that short?
THIS, in a nutshell, is the crux of the dispute and it has nothing to do with loneliness. It's the differences in opinion between those who believe that humans have every capability of, in effect, operating as gods in their potential to create, manipulate, and alter life and their environment toward perfection and contentment and those who believe that human potential is finite and can never come close to achieving this and believing it's possible and correct to attempt it is the ultimate vanity.

The questions that emerge are those with which we are grappling in this 21st Century.
 
Old 02-24-2009, 08:56 PM
 
Location: Texas
8,063 posts, read 10,973,389 times
Reputation: 3521
Quote:
Originally Posted by gnab gib View Post
So, let me try to follow your logic.

Your God can do everything ... so much more than these puny scientists can.

And your God loves you unconditionally.

So if God can do anything and loves you so much, why hasn't he healed you yet?

Frankly, I'd be a little miffed.
Sigh...again, this is OUT of the realm of "logic." Let me put it in a way you can perhaps understand -- if you believe wholeheartedly in science/medicine and it fails to cure you and can't even pinpoint the cause of the disease, does this make science worthless? Would THAT be a "logical" statement to make? Of course not.

But that is precisely what you are trying to apply to God and faith; moreover, faith does not rely on or operate according to logical science so your assertions are doubly void.

And my God loves me always and gives me strength to endure; your science regards me as a failure and treats me accordingly.
 
Old 02-24-2009, 09:07 PM
 
Location: Texas
8,063 posts, read 10,973,389 times
Reputation: 3521
Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
It is some political corruption of Christianity to assert that the only way is through Christ? Unless things have changed recently, that seems to be one of the central tenets of that religion. Exclusive. Proprietary. Not embracing, and certainly not universal.


I shall have to note that atheists are as steeped in, as capable of, and as comfortable with spirituality as theists. Religion offers no advantage there.
Clearly, you're not well read in Christian theology nor familiar with the evolution and depth of Christian thought. Yes, it was indeed a political corruption of Christianity, perpetrated primarily in the Middle Ages when kings were believed to be chosen and anointed by God to preside over the secular kingdom AND as a representative of God's kingdom on Earth. Christ Himself included Jews, Samaritans and Pagans in His Ministry, which is amply clear in the New Testament.

And isn't that why this particular discussion is found on the POLITICAL FORUM rather than the RELIGION forum, where it actually belongs? It's certainly why I've limited my comments to deism, in general, rather than a specific religion.
 
Old 02-24-2009, 09:24 PM
 
Location: um....guess
10,483 posts, read 9,124,347 times
Reputation: 1780
Quote:
Originally Posted by teatime View Post
Sigh...again, this is OUT of the realm of "logic." Let me put it in a way you can perhaps understand -- if you believe wholeheartedly in science/medicine and it fails to cure you and can't even pinpoint the cause of the disease, does this make science worthless? Would THAT be a "logical" statement to make? Of course not.

But that is precisely what you are trying to apply to God and faith; moreover, faith does not rely on or operate according to logical science so your assertions are doubly void.

And my God loves me always and gives me strength to endure; your science regards me as a failure and treats me accordingly.
I think the key note you made in this was "logical" science....people believe in science, which most definitely in most instances is logical. Believing in something that hasn't been proven & that you cannot see is....not logical.
 
Old 02-25-2009, 07:36 AM
 
28,005 posts, read 10,391,663 times
Reputation: 7282
Quote:
Originally Posted by teatime View Post
Uh, the nature of randomness is that there IS no expected outcome.

And your "some more stuff" will likely bring up even more anomalies and questions. It usually does. There has to be a point where a rational person says "I don't know and it's quite possible that we never can know" because that is truly the only rational and broad-minded reaction. Saying we WILL and CAN know puts humans on a very large, never-stopping hamster wheel. It also relegates humans to utter reliance on only other humans for meaning and inspiration which, in any slice of humanity at any given time, is frightening, indeed.

And I brought up the old, bearded man image solely because one of your comrades used it. I don't have a mental "picture" of God because God is essence, not substance. As a Christian, I recognize that the paintings of Jesus are likely VERY far off the mark and His visage matters naught.
I simply don't subscribe to your hamster-wheel analogy. The search for answers isn't just spinning our wheels, we've made very real progress over time in understanding the world around us, and in understanding ourselves. I'm terribly sorry that science and medicine have been unable to resolve your illness, but for me the knowledge that we have better treatments for a huge number of diseases than we had even 50 years ago tells me there is no reason to believe that we won't make even more stunning progress in the next 50 years. The idea of humans depending on other humans you find frightening, and I find wonderful. Humans rise to meet challenges over and over and over. Yes, we can be selfish and cruel and thoughtless. And we can be magnaminous and heroic. And those qualities have nothing to do with which god we worship or don't worship, there are simply good people and bad people, and most of us actually try to do good according to how we see the world.
 
Old 02-25-2009, 07:41 AM
 
28,005 posts, read 10,391,663 times
Reputation: 7282
Quote:
Originally Posted by teatime View Post
THIS, in a nutshell, is the crux of the dispute and it has nothing to do with loneliness. It's the differences in opinion between those who believe that humans have every capability of, in effect, operating as gods in their potential to create, manipulate, and alter life and their environment toward perfection and contentment and those who believe that human potential is finite and can never come close to achieving this and believing it's possible and correct to attempt it is the ultimate vanity.

The questions that emerge are those with which we are grappling in this 21st Century.
Your crux isn't my crux. I don't believe that humans created the universe. I don't believe that humans have every capability of operating as gods. I don't believe that perfection is even something we should strive for. I do believe that human potential is limited, but it is more limited by our own fears of the unknown, by our doubts and weaknesses, than it is limited by nature. I don't equate the drive to go further, to learn more, to master more skills, to exceed the preconceived limitations as vanity, I think rather it's the basis for achievement.
 
Old 02-25-2009, 07:45 AM
 
28,005 posts, read 10,391,663 times
Reputation: 7282
Quote:
Originally Posted by teatime View Post
Sigh...again, this is OUT of the realm of "logic." Let me put it in a way you can perhaps understand -- if you believe wholeheartedly in science/medicine and it fails to cure you and can't even pinpoint the cause of the disease, does this make science worthless? Would THAT be a "logical" statement to make? Of course not.

But that is precisely what you are trying to apply to God and faith; moreover, faith does not rely on or operate according to logical science so your assertions are doubly void.

And my God loves me always and gives me strength to endure; your science regards me as a failure and treats me accordingly.
Science does not regard you as a failure and treat you accordingly, some doctors or scientists may have treated you badly. But just as you point out that if God does not heal you, than that doesn't negate your faith, if logic is to bear, the attitude of a few men of science doesn't represent the body of science, nor would the attitude of a few priests represent the body of faith.
 
Old 02-25-2009, 12:28 PM
 
Location: Texas
8,063 posts, read 10,973,389 times
Reputation: 3521
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge View Post
I simply don't subscribe to your hamster-wheel analogy. The search for answers isn't just spinning our wheels, we've made very real progress over time in understanding the world around us, and in understanding ourselves. I'm terribly sorry that science and medicine have been unable to resolve your illness, but for me the knowledge that we have better treatments for a huge number of diseases than we had even 50 years ago tells me there is no reason to believe that we won't make even more stunning progress in the next 50 years. The idea of humans depending on other humans you find frightening, and I find wonderful. Humans rise to meet challenges over and over and over. Yes, we can be selfish and cruel and thoughtless. And we can be magnaminous and heroic. And those qualities have nothing to do with which god we worship or don't worship, there are simply good people and bad people, and most of us actually try to do good according to how we see the world.
Well, if you really think about it, science/medicine hasn't been as successful as many would like to believe. A lot of the diseases that plagued humans centuries ago have been quelled by simple, basic hygiene and an improvement in living standards. I think the greatest achievements are vaccines and surgery. But it's interesting that many folks and even some doctors are resurrecting very ancient herbs and remedies for treatment -- even leeches are making a comeback.

We need to be more proactive about medical research because we have a whole new cache of diseases and ailments. A lot of our treatments and medications can stem one disease but cause others. For example, prednisone was hailed as a miracle drug and it DOES provide considerable relief in a variety of conditions. But, it's also been found to cause osteoporosis, diabetes, weight gain, etc. and all of those complications lead to more disease.

It's easy to hail utter reliance on other humans as "wonderful" as long as you're not at the mercy of truly bad people. We've never lived under a dictatorship or other tyrannical regime, thank God. But if you told people who have that you believe we only have us, nothing more, and you find that "wonderful," they'd think you were nuts. Consider that the majority of the world's people do NOT live in a democracy.
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