Confederate holiday provokes a war between the Souths (education, elect, states)
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The growing strength of the federal government was a threat to regionalism. Industrialization and the development of a rail system threatened that regionalism. The North had embraced the changes that industrialization would bring. With denser populations already in place, the advantages of urbanization and industrialization were readily apparent. In a region like the South, with far less dense population, the advantages have to be weighed against the challenges. The two regions of the country were very different places, not just on their stances regarding slavery, but in every way.
That is well stated. It has been argued several times on this Forum that the differences between the sides were considerably more complex than is generally assumed.
It is also useful to take a look at the English Civil War of the previous century which, as George Orwell observed, could be seen as "a war between land and money", with money winning the day and the landowners being so thoroughly disenfranchised that many fled to the New World, most notably to the southern colonies of America, where they established the plantation system and the Southern aristocracy, which made its final stand against a centralized political government and the democratized rule of law in the war of 1861-1865.
I would take issue with your reference to the "advantages" accruing to the concentrations of population, urbanization and industrialization in the North, if you mean to imply that these phenomena had any significant positive impact beyond the commercial and economic spheres, particularly in the light of the current stresses on our social and economic fabric as a result of the overwhlemingly pervasive concentrations of urbanized populations and hodge-podge industrialization of much of the country.
I would take issue with your reference to the "advantages" accruing to the concentrations of population, urbanization and industrialization in the North, if you mean to imply that these phenomena had any significant positive impact beyond the commercial and economic spheres, particularly in the light of the current stresses on our social and economic fabric as a result of the overwhlemingly pervasive concentrations of urbanized populations and hodge-podge industrialization of much of the country.
No, I wasn't referring to any advantages beyond economic/business advantages, and that the North was better positioned to seize these advantages given that they were already far more urbanized than the South. If Pennsylvania at that time was considered America's breadbasket, and you consider the number of major cities in that state at that time (major for that period of history) and compare it to a state such as Mississippi or even Georgia, it's clear that Northern states with their smaller land areas and larger, more urban populations were better poised for the period of industrialization than Southern states.
South Carolina attacked a Union attempt to supply a fort that fell within their territory, and that they had tried to negotiate for control over with the government in Washington DC. Lincoln announced his intent to supply the Union soldiers, and took action to do so without any authority of Congress. Not one Union soldier died by any Confederate action during the confrontation. So while the Confederacy took rash action, there can be some argument over who was the aggressor in regards to Sumter.
It has been throughout the history of the United States the country's policy to defend its right to its bases. Your argument would allow Cuba to take Gitmo. It's pure and simple, the South attacked a United States military installation. That's an act of war, and for the south and act of treason.
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Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge
Lincoln fought to preserve the Union. The Southern states fought to preserve what they thought was their rightful autonomy to make laws and enforce them within their own boundaries. Slavery might have been the law at issue, but the vast majority of those rebel soldiers didn't own slaves and weren't fighting for the right to someday do so. They just didn't want the federal government, especially a federal government controlled by Northern businessmen, telling Southern farmers what they could and could not do.
The South fought to preserve the institution of slavery. Those that didn't own slaves still owed their livelihood to the economic system supported by slavery.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge
And your remark about "degenerate Southern gentlemen" is full of contempt. Which bears out my remark about the attitudes we engender when we teach the Civil War as a morality lesson rather than a history lesson.
I have nothing but contempt for Lee. He was a traitor to his oath as an American military officer. He was a major slave owner and mistreated his slaves. He interpreted his father-in-law's will that freed the Curtis slaves in a manner to enrich himself at the expense of the slaves. He spent the years after the civil war weaving the lie of the "Lost Cause." There isn't a thing to admire.
It has been throughout the history of the United States the country's policy to defend its right to its bases. Your argument would allow Cuba to take Gitmo. It's pure and simple, the South attacked a United States military installation. That's an act of war, and for the south and act of treason.
I understand your reference to Cuba/Gitmo, but there is more involved here, don't you think? The fort is Fort Sumter, SC. South Carolina has sent a delegation to the federal government to address it's claim to the fort, and that matter has not been resolved. Tensions between the Union and the Confederacy are only exacerbated by the lack of resolution to this matter. Lincoln, who has decided to not recognize that states' rights to secede, a decision not supported by his Supreme Court nor by Congress as a whole, decides on an aggressive action to re-supply the fort despite the objections of the state of South Carolina. Again, I think the South was foolhardy in its reaction, but they did not injure or kill any Union soldiers in this action. I think this fact is important because it indicates some restraint on the South's behalf, and that restraint to me suggests that diplomacy could still be exercised to avert war. Lincoln was also agitating here, and doing so without Congressional approval. If the North had lost the war, Lincoln's unilateral actions here would have been regarded quite differently, even perhaps criminally. That's why I claim that there is validity to challenge the South as the sole aggressor to the beginning of the war.
The South fought to preserve the institution of slavery. Those that didn't own slaves still owed their livelihood to the economic system supported by slavery.
I don't think an apple grower in Arkansas would say that he owed his livelihood to the economic system supported by slavery. There were people who did, and people who didn't. The better argument is that the people who held political power in most of these states did so because wealth afforded them the luxury to dabble in politics, and that wealth was built on the economic system supported by slavery. But the vast majority of soldiers came from homes where slavery was an issue of debate, but from a distance because they did not own slaves nor were they financially in positions where they expected to own slaves in the future.
I have nothing but contempt for Lee. He was a traitor to his oath as an American military officer. He was a major slave owner and mistreated his slaves. He interpreted his father-in-law's will that freed the Curtis slaves in a manner to enrich himself at the expense of the slaves. He spent the years after the civil war weaving the lie of the "Lost Cause." There isn't a thing to admire.].
[color="indigo"]I'm not a Civil War buff, so I don't know enough about Lee to judge him. But I still do think that when we teach children to hold contempt for other people, even people in the past, we are doing them a disservice. We should always try to teach children to have compassion for other people, and that compassion should be based on understanding that our ideas of morality are not absolutes, that circumstances and human knowledge force us to continually reevaluate what is good and what is evil. And the best we can do is to strive for true integrity in what we value and hold dear. I can judge myself, I know what was in my heart when I've made the choices I've made, but when it comes to judging others, I can weigh their actions, decide guilt or not, but to know what was in that person's heart, why that person made his or her choices, that is what I work to try to understand[/COLOR
[color="indigo"]I'm not a Civil War buff, so I don't know enough about Lee to judge him. But I still do think that when we teach children to hold contempt for other people, even people in the past, we are doing them a disservice. We should always try to teach children to have compassion for other people, and that compassion should be based on understanding that our ideas of morality are not absolutes, that circumstances and human knowledge force us to continually reevaluate what is good and what is evil. And the best we can do is to strive for true integrity in what we value and hold dear. I can judge myself, I know what was in my heart when I've made the choices I've made, but when it comes to judging others, I can weigh their actions, decide guilt or not, but to know what was in that person's heart, why that person made his or her choices, that is what I work to try to understand[/COLOR
Tell me what do you tell your children about Hitler, Dahmer, Manson, Jack-the-Ripper, etc. Are you oh so PC that you tell them that everyone has value? Lee was part of the evil that we exterminated the way we kill cockroaches.
The federal government must have a state's permission to purchase any land within a state; Article I Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution:
"To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And"
States may therefore revoke such consent. The feds had no right to stay at Fort Sumter if the state said to leave, even if the state had not seceded and formed an independent country.
Tell me what do you tell your children about Hitler, Dahmer, Manson, Jack-the-Ripper, etc. Are you oh so PC that you tell them that everyone has value? Lee was part of the evil that we exterminated the way we kill cockroaches.
States may therefore revoke such consent. The feds had no right to stay at Fort Sumter if the state said to leave, even if the state had not seceded and formed an independent country.
Tell me what do you tell your children about Hitler, Dahmer, Manson, Jack-the-Ripper, etc. Are you oh so PC that you tell them that everyone has value? Lee was part of the evil that we exterminated the way we kill cockroaches.
It's not PC to tell children that everyone has value. It's the truth. There are sick people who do evil things. As adults we have to deal with those evil things. Sometimes they are truly horrific, and the sick people who perpetrated those horrors have to be dealt with so they never hurt anyone else. That is an adult matter. Children have their own matters to deal with. You hate Lee. I prefer my children don't learn to hate.
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Lee was part of the evil that we exterminated the way we kill cockroaches.
