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The Germans were also on a battlefield, where they were trying to kill Americans. But we called them prisoners of war.
We summarily executed many many Germans. We werent too sweet on them. We called them POWs because they fought under the German flag and we were at war with Germany. Terrorists fight behind no flag or country, hence the label enemy combattant. By defining them as POWs, you would insist and litigate to provide them with Geneva Conventions. Conventions which they do not provide to their hostages and prisoners.
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Originally Posted by Unstable
Getting back to torture
You are trying to redefine torture. We made the terrorists uncomfortable. We didn't torture them. Read McCains book Faith of My Fathers to have a true taste of what torture is.
Having your head dunked in a bucket of water; placement inside a confinement box with catapillars; cramped confinement; sleep deprivation; placement in stress positions; facial slapping; facial holds; "walling" and the "attention grasp" is not torture.
The following is a short excerpt from a HeraldSun article providing a good illustration of what torture is.
"One guard held me while the others pounded away.They cracked several of my ribs and broke a couple of teeth. Weakened by beatings and dysentery, with my right leg again almost useless, I found it impossible to stand.
One man, Dick Stratton, had huge infected scars on his arms from rope torture. His thumbnails had been torn off and he had been burned with cigarettes." - McCain
Readers Digest digest ran with this in the 70's, explaining Cuban involvement in torturing American POWs during the VietnamWar
The man could barely walk; he shuffled slowly, painfully. His clothes were torn to shreds. He was bleeding everywhere, terribly swollen, and a dirty, yellowish black and purple from head to toe. The man's head was down; he made no attempt to look at anyone. He had been through much more than the day's beatings.
His body was ripped and torn everywhere; "hell- cuffs" appeared almost to have severed the wrists, strap marks still wound around the arms all the way to the shoulders, slivers of bamboo were embedded in the bloodied shins and there were what appeared to be tread marks from the hose across the chest, back and legs.
Fidel smashed a fist into the man's face, driving him against the wall. Then he was brought to the center of the room and made to get down onto his knees. Screaming in rage, Fidel took a length of rubber hose from a guard and lashed it as hard as he could into the man's face. The prisoner did not react; he did not cry out or even blink an eye. Again and again, a dozen times, smashed the man's face with the hose.
That gentlemen, is torture. Torture is not making someone uncomfortable. The juxtaposition of our methods to true torture methods is a misinformational attempt to discredit our former administration and paint them as evil.
I stand by my country and you stand against it. I give my country the benefit of doubt, you give terrorists the benefit of doubt.
We summarily execute many Al Qaeda fighters on the battlefield.
It doesn't change the fact that we accorded the status of prisoners of war to the Germans we captured. And with that status come certain protections.
We were wrong about the things we've done at Gitmo.
And saying that my country can be wrong about something doesn't make me less of a patriot. In fact, saying that we were wrong, and wanting my country to live up to its own principles is an affirmation of just how much I love my country, and what high esteem I hold for it.
I remember 9/11 everyday as I pass the WTC on my way to work and its the Neocons forgot . Stop defending that Loser BUsh administration if you want to honor 9/11, they deserve to be thrown into a cell and left to rot.
Exactly.
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Originally Posted by mossomo
Yup. I like to know who my enemies are. The difference between you and me is I give my country the benefit of the doubt and you give terrorists the benefit of the doubt.
Not true. At all.
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Originally Posted by uber_bwnage
Good. Maybe next time you will think twice before your comrades fly planes into our buildings.
That so-called "torture" is nothing compared to the torture of having to jump 110 stories from your burning office building.
Agreed. But the thing is, it is not PROVEN that these people were terrorists.
Some innocent people are being tortured too. Are you ok with that?
Location: Moose Jaw, in between the Moose's butt and nose.
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For all of those who say torture is ok, against terrorists (even those that are just accused, not proven), are you ok with the "we are at war" arguement when terrorists or other countries armies, do the same to our troops?
For all of those who say torture is ok, against terrorists (even those that are just accused, not proven), are you ok with the "we are at war" arguement when terrorists or other countries armies, do the same to our troops?
Our troops would be lucky to receive the same treatment if captured. As it is they endure real torture, are decapitated, shot, stabbed, mutilated and then dumped as trash in the middle of the night.
You my friend are redefining torture and then are slandering us for not going along with it. The torture inflicted on John McCain and the robber hose incident I referenced above is torture. I speak for 99.9% of my side when I say those actions are irreprehensible. But please do not group me in with the likes of McCain's captors because I don't care to cause terrorists a little discomfort. These are two different things that you are trying to juxtapose into one.
Making a terrorist uncomfortable /= having thumbnails torn off, burned with cigarettes, beat with robber hose.
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Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge
When was it proven that they were plotting attacks? In what court? By what prosecutor?
DC - we've been through this. We didnt just fly into Mecca and grab some random guys. We detained these terrorists on the battlefield. Lesson: don't go to battle and expect a jury trial.
For all of those who say torture is ok, against terrorists (even those that are just accused, not proven), are you ok with the "we are at war" arguement when terrorists or other countries armies, do the same to our troops?
How lame can a person get?
If you are sitting in a crack house and the cops come by and break down the door and arrest everyone in the building, when you get to court will you say. Oh...hey...your honor...I just stopped by to see cousin Jill...why sir, I didn't know Jack about what was going on in there. There was a funny smell in the place and everone seemed a littly loopy I was just enjoying the chip and dip.
Waterboarding is a lot easier than what happens to us when we're captured or caught. We did waterboarding experiments and while yes they are scary, I have to agree with the report released by DHS (why DHS has this report, I'm still confused) and I can't see how there would be short or long term effects. It's definitly a lot better than having battery cables attached to your nipples like the terrorist in Iraq did to their captured.
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