Major scandal erupts involving Rep. Jane Harman, Alberto Gonzales and AIPAC (Congress, Iran)

[TnHilltopper]

Such a tangle web we weave when we practice to deceive.

Major scandal erupts involving Rep. Jane Harman, Alberto Gonzales and AIPAC - Glenn Greenwald - Salon.com

Of course Justin Raimondo goes into much greater depth than Glenn Greenwald

Harmanic Convergence by Justin Raimondo -- Antiwar.com

So, let me get this right, a targeted member of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee or AIPAC who was being legally wiretapped, approached Harmon and asked her to intervene in the upcoming and latest Israeli spying case of Franklin and Rosen. In turn, this AIPAC associate claimed they would have political pressure put on Nancy Pelosi to in turn to help Harmon gain a key Chairmanship of the very powerful House intelligence committee.

Now DOJ officials concluded from this interception that crimes had been committed and sought to expand their investigation, but the then Attorney General Alberto Gonzalas intervened to squash the investigation because Harmon supported warrantless wire taps that were being promoted by the Bush administration.

So currently we have a foreign organization that is influencing powerful political figures to alter a spy investigation, we have a former Attorney General squashing an investigation for political purposes and now the very program of warrantless wire taps that Harmon supported she is now claiming as draconian Brownshirt tactics.

Let me ask you folks this, if a Muslim political lobbying group was caught on tape trying to influence a key powerful politician to squash a spying investigation by say... Iran or Syria, would you be outraged? Would you also not be outraged if the Attorney General then tried to sweep it all under the rug? I suspect you would.

[Redisca]

AIPAC is not a foreign organization. Or are you classifying all Jews as "foreigners" by definition? Gee, if someone characterized Muslims that way, would you be outraged? I suspect you would.

And please -- don't "clarify". Reminds me of the incident in the 1970's when a French television station inadvertently referred to victims of a synagogue bombing as "4 Jews and 2 innocent Frenchmen". I love it when people slip up like that. Shows what they are really thinking.

[TnHilltopper]

Originally Posted by Redisca

AIPAC is not a foreign organization. Or are you classifying all Jews as "foreigners" by definition? Gee, if someone characterized Muslims that way, would you be outraged? I suspect you would.

AIPAC does represent a foreign government and no, I didn't classify all Jews as foreigners, please do not even try that third grade sandbox crap on me. try to be accurate if you are going to assert what I said.

Here is the first paragraph from their own website

For more than half a century, the American Israel Public Affairs Committee has worked to help make Israel more secure by ensuring that American support remains strong.

AIPAC - Learn About AIPAC

[GregW]

Israel will always look out for itself. It does not have, and never has, any loyalty toward the US or any other country. They seem to be unconcerned with the law when it comes to looking out for them selves. Look at what they do, not what they say.

We are fools if we consider this country a friend or an ally. We are nothing but a convenience for them.

[Redisca]

Originally Posted by TnHilltopper

AIPAC does represent a foreign government and no, I didn't classify all Jews as foreigners, please do not even try that third grade sandbox crap on me. try to be accurate if you are going to assert what I said.

Even though it promotes what AIPAC members believe to be Israel's best interests, it does not "represent" a foreign government, and it is not an arm of a foreign government. It is an American organization, hate it though you might, owned and operated by American citizens, hate them though you might. By characterizing it as a "foreign" organization, you insinuated that they are "foreigners". Oh wait, you said you didn't classify "all" Jews as foreigners. All right, I'll bite. Which American citizens do you classify as "foreigners"?

By the way -- to the extent that certain Muslim lobbying groups promote the interests of Muslims outside the borders of this country, do you similarly characterize them as "foreign organizations"? Are CAIR and IAP "foreign organizations" in your view?

[TnHilltopper]

The reason that AIPAC is specifically worded as "American Israel Public Affairs Committee" and not as often miquoted by many as the "American Israeli Political Action Committee" (as Chris Matthews did last night) is that if it were listed as a "political action committee" it would in fact be required by law to register with the US as a foreign agent. So, being listed as a public affairs committee negates having to register as a foreign agent, although when one reads their website, it is blatantly obvious they represent Israel, not American Jews.

Again, please, I beg of you to stop using this damned third grade crap and suggest that I hate Israel or I hate Jews, if you wish to call me antisemitic, then for God sakes have the guts to just say it. I do not hate Israel and I have advocated countless times that they be allowed to pursuit their own interests without US interference or influence, I only ask that they do it on their own dime, that is all.

I do not like ANY foreign government having influence or suggesting that their interest are the same as our interest because that is simply not true.

So who were these alleged spies spying for, a political lobbying group here in America? Do you support Americans or foreign nationals spying on the United States? Do you think it is ok that a member of AIPAC who was currently under investigation by the DOJ and being legally wire tapped should approach a key Democratic Congresswoman and suggest she influence an spying investigation? Do you feel it acceptable that the Attorney General quash an investigation for political purposes?

This is where we are in America today, quote a story that is a major headline in nearly every major newspaper and you are accused of hating Jews or Israeli's, not because of what they did, because you point it out.

Egads...

[Redisca]

You didn't answer my questions: Which American citizens to you consider "foreigners"? Do you consider Muslim lobbying groups which, though owned and operated by American citizens, promote the interests of Muslims abroad, "foreign organizations"? Do you consider CAIR and IAP "foreign organizations"?

This is where we are in America today, quote a story that is a major headline in nearly every major newspaper and you are accused of hating Jews or Israeli's, not because of what they did, because you point it out.

[Redisca]

Originally Posted by TnHilltopper

This is where we are in America today, quote a story that is a major headline in nearly every major newspaper and you are accused of hating Jews or Israeli's, not because of what they did, because you point it out.

*Yawn* If you are obsessed with spies or criminals because they are spies or criminals, you are not an antisemite. If you are obsessed with certain spies or criminals not because they are spies or criminals, but because they are Jews or Israelis, you are an antisemite. If you subject Jews or Israelis to greater scrutiny than anyone else, then you are an antisemite. If you apply more stringent standards to Jews or Israelis (including, but not limited to, spies and criminals that happen to be Jews or Israelis), that you don't apply to anyone else (including, but not limited to, spies and criminals that don't happen to be Jews or Israelis), then you are an antisemite. If you believe that Jews do not have the moral right to promote the interests of Jews, including Jews who aren't American, while at the same time believing that Muslims do have the moral right to promote the interests of Muslims, including Muslims who aren't American, you are an antisemite.

You didn't just quote a major headline. You know that. You meant it as a reflection on Jews, and you made an insinuation that, at the very least, people who are members of AIPAC, though American citizens, are "foreigners". And you continue the insinuation that Jews (or Israelis, or "foreigners") somehow control political discourse in this country -- which is, of course, blatantly antisemitic.

[TnHilltopper]

Originally Posted by Redisca

You didn't answer my questions: Which American citizens to you consider "foreigners"? Do you consider Muslim lobbying groups which, though owned and operated by American citizens, promote the interests of Muslims abroad, "foreign organizations"? Do you consider CAIR and IAP "foreign organizations"?

I don't consider any American citizens as foreigners. I am not familiar with IAP and the little I am familiar with CAIR, its mission statement is vastly different. If CAIR represents the interest of a foreign government, then it should be listed as a foreign agent.

However the Council on American-Islamic Relations isn't specific unless you consider Islam to be a country. AIPAC isn't about the affairs of American-Jewish relations, as AIPAC represents ISRAEL specifically.

Now that I have answered your questions, please answer mine

So who were these alleged spies spying for, a political lobbying group here in America? Do you support Americans or foreign nationals spying on the United States? Do you think it is ok that a member of AIPAC who was currently under investigation by the DOJ and being legally wire tapped should approach a key Democratic Congresswoman and suggest she influence an spying investigation? Do you feel it acceptable that the Attorney General quash an investigation for political purposes?

[GregW]

Please remember that Semite refers to people of Middle Eastern descent without regard for religion. Israeli Jews are Semites, Palestinian Muslims are Semites, and Egyptian Christians are Semites. Persian Jews, Christians and Muslims are not. Semite is a “race” based on location not religion.

I am not an anti-Semite but I do not appreciate our policies and politics being disproportionately influenced for the benefit of Israel or Saudi Arabia.