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Old 04-08-2010, 11:14 PM
 
604 posts, read 601,366 times
Reputation: 255

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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmazinGracie View Post
Ahhhhh....the ever-popular Leviticus 18:22......too bad this "holiness code" doesn't really apply to homosexuals, but to priests only, as its intent was to set the priests of Israel over and against priests of other cultures.

What the Bible Says - And Doesn't Say - About Homosexuality (http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-gay-christian - broken link)

But this isn't a religious argument. Rights are based on Constitutional Law, not Biblical Law.

Why is it so hard for people to understand that we don't want special rights....just EQUAL RIGHTS.

I fully believe that ALL people should be LEGALLY married by civil union. The church and state should be separate in this. If you want a religious ceremony, fine....find a church to meet that need. But the legal union should be a CIVIL matter.

Gays and lesbians are denied 1138 state and federal rights by marriage that are afforded to heterosexuals. How can anyone say that is fair or equal? And how can anyone with a working brain actually say that we aren't being discriminated against?

"Honestly, we hardly hear about gays in our history, when did people start becoming gay?"

Ummmm....in biblical times. And no gays in our history? How about;

Socrates (470-399 B.C.) Greek Teacher and Philosopher
Plato (427-347 B.C.) Greek Teacher and Philosopher
Alexander The Great (356-323 B.C.) Macedonian King and Military Leader
Leonardo da Vinci (1452-1519) Italian Renaissance Artist, Teacher, Scientist and Inventor
Michelangelo (1475-1564) Italian Renaissance Artist and Sculptor
Julius III (1487-1555) Catholic Pope....YES....a Pope!!!!
Chief Crazy Horse (Tashunca witco) (1849-1877) Oglala Sioux Chief
Tennessee Williams (1914-1983) Euro-American Dramatist

....just to name a few (here's a more complete list in case you need it Gays and Lesbians in History )

The Bible is mis-interpreted often, I understand that part, thanks for the site, I like to find things that upset the elders of the church who are set in stone, helps me learn more, religiously and life-skill wise...

Very true

Where is the 1188 state/federal rights coming from??

I said hardly, not "No".
Was aware of the top 5, as ancient cultures of the Romans and Greeks were often gay/ bi sexual (don't consider them different, because of def. so will just put gays// homosexuals)

Will assume the gays and lesbians site is cited somewhere?

Frieda Kahlo (1907-1954) Mexican Artist and Activist---was married to a man...

Thanks though
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Old 04-09-2010, 12:04 AM
 
Location: Arizona Desert
3,078 posts, read 892,274 times
Reputation: 1673
Here are some of the legal rights that married couples have and gays and lesbians are denied:
  1. Joint parental rights of children
  2. Joint adoption
  3. Status as "next-of-kin" for hospital visits and medical decisions
  4. Right to make a decision about the disposal of loved ones remains
  5. Immigration and residency for partners from other countries
  6. Crime victims recovery benefits
  7. Domestic violence protection orders
  8. Judicial protections and immunity
  9. Automatic inheritance in the absence of a will
  10. Public safety officers death benefits
  11. Spousal veterans benefits
  12. Social Security
  13. Medicare
  14. Joint filing of tax returns
  15. Wrongful death benefits for surviving partner and children
  16. Bereavement or sick leave to care for partner or children
  17. Child support
  18. Joint Insurance Plans
  19. Tax credits including: Child tax credit, Hope and lifetime learning credits
  20. Deferred Compensation for pension and IRAs
  21. Estate and gift tax benefits
  22. Welfare and public assistance
  23. Joint housing for elderly
  24. Credit protection
  25. Medical care for survivors and dependents of certain veterans
Even in the states that do allow same-sex marriages, most of the benefits of marriage do not apply, because the Defense of Marriage Act states that the federal government only recognizes marriage as "a legal union of one man and one woman as husband and wife".

I'm sure if you want a list of all 1138 state and federal rights, you can Google that yourself.


Oh, and Frieda Kahlo was bisexual.
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Old 04-09-2010, 12:06 AM
 
Location: southern california
53,432 posts, read 68,324,606 times
Reputation: 45012
the right to procreate?
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Old 04-09-2010, 01:22 AM
 
Location: Long Beach
2,350 posts, read 2,204,293 times
Reputation: 895
Quote:
Originally Posted by thefinalsay View Post
just a questioin. I bet no one can come up with a single right that a straight person has that a gay person does not. the marriage argument doesn't work. gays have the same rights as straight people when it comes to marriage.
Only in a hand full of states and not on the federal level. Masachusetts sued the federal government to overturn the Defense of Marriage act because it, as a federal law, inhibits the right of Massachusetts from making its own laws regarding marriage equality.

But it's ok for the conservative states to cry wolf over states rights only when it benefits some jackass religious neo-con scheme. Am I right?

Marriage is more a legal contract than an act of love. Being married entitles you to 1000's of legal rights, that would otherwise be denied to your spouse.
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Old 04-09-2010, 01:26 AM
 
Location: Long Beach
2,350 posts, read 2,204,293 times
Reputation: 895
Quote:
Originally Posted by AmazinGracie View Post
Even in the states that do allow same-sex marriages, most of the benefits of marriage do not apply, because the Defense of Marriage Act states that the federal government only recognizes marriage as "a legal union of one man and one woman as husband and wife".

I'm sure if you want a list of all 1138 state and federal rights, you can Google that yourself.
Massachusetts sued to have that changed citing it was a states' rights issue. What is so ironic is the religious right manipulates the federal government to overstep its Constitutional authority only when it benefits them such as abortion or Terri Shciavo. But any other time, such as oh health insurance, these people freak out, saying big government is horrible, blah blah blah.

Hypocrits one and all.
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Old 04-09-2010, 01:48 AM
 
2,127 posts, read 1,515,487 times
Reputation: 1008
Lots of nonsensical words in this thread trying to justify not allowing gays to get married. All of the circuitousness and indirection simply provides another way to avoid simply coming out and saying that gay people should be quiet and accept their subordinate position in society. Luckily, that probably won't happen. It's only a matter of time.

The best part will be when a national gay marriage bill passes and us straight people find that absolutely nothing has changed vis-a-vis our own marriages. Hopefully those who were so adamantly against it will feel really stupid then.
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Old 04-09-2010, 04:31 AM
 
2,015 posts, read 4,351,895 times
Reputation: 1858
Quote:
Originally Posted by thefinalsay View Post
just a questioin. I bet no one can come up with a single right that a straight person has that a gay person does not. the marriage argument doesn't work. gays have the same rights as straight people when it comes to marriage.
The right to exist without ridicule (possible discrimination) or the possibility of physical violence. The fact is that the gay person has to do NOTHING to be on the receiving end of ridicule/physical violence other than being themselves. If you can't see that yet, I hold hope that you will someday. And if that's not enough, maybe you'll come back in your next lifetime and learn the lessons that you haven't learned in this lifetime (same as for all of us).

As far as marriage (having the same rights to marriage as a heterosexual couple), wow! Just wow!!!
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Old 04-09-2010, 04:42 AM
 
806 posts, read 618,262 times
Reputation: 231
Quote:
Originally Posted by thefinalsay View Post
just a questioin. I bet no one can come up with a single right that a straight person has that a gay person does not. the marriage argument doesn't work. gays have the same rights as straight people when it comes to marriage.
Heterosexuals have the right to call their Unions "marriage"!
As in... Do you take this woman to be your lawfully wedded wife?...

Where homosexuals have the right to call their Unions "sodomy"!
As in...

Married people can engage in "sodomy" but Sodomites can't engage in "marriage"!

And that's the way the cookie crumbles.....
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Old 04-09-2010, 05:02 AM
 
Location: Palm Springs, CA
26,175 posts, read 22,655,648 times
Reputation: 7328
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtinChicago View Post
Heterosexuals have the right to call their Unions "marriage"!
As in... Do you take this woman to be your lawfully wedded wife?...

Where homosexuals have the right to call their Unions "sodomy"!
As in...

Married people can engage in "sodomy" but Sodomites can't engage in "marriage"!

And that's the way the cookie crumbles.....
I think of this as the Neanderthal point of view on this subject.
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Old 04-09-2010, 07:21 AM
 
Location: KCMO Metro Area
199 posts, read 253,640 times
Reputation: 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by thefinalsay View Post
a gay man can serve in the military. a straight man can serve in the military. I didn't notice you making a point. I am not anti gay marriage, I am anti institution of marriage. it's man made.

Actually; marriage is an institution rooted to religion, which I guess can be considered to be man made by some and divinely inspired or ordained by some.

The truth is this;
In many states, a gay person is not allowed to marry the person they love.
In the military, they can not make their sexual preference known.

So there is two rights, I am sure if I gave this subject more thought, I could find more.

I have actually done some fact finding about gay marriage as it was a ballot issue in the state I live; this is the conclusion I came to on all of it.

The religious oppose gay marriage because they claim marriage is ordained by God and it is defined as the joining of a man & woman. After researching the various religions, this is a pretty common belief.

I have been unable to find polls or other research that is not HIGHLY biased by either side of the debate. So I just periodically asked people I knew about what they thought. Not surprisingly, most of them was against the marriage debate for religious reasons. But when asked if they believed it was wrong to deny a gay person inheritance rights, or the rights given to a spouse in medical situations, and other such instances, they did not really have a problem with them getting any of these privileges.

Which made me dig a little deeper into our laws on the subject and I came to this conclusion:
Marriage is an institution created by numerous religions
It has subsequently been adopted and accepted by the various States

With these two things in mind, this is what I think will eventually happen.

With the separation of church and state, some states will just say we have marriage and it is available to all citizens.

While other states will come to the conclusion that since marriage is a religious based event, they should not recognize ANY marriage and will only recognize "civil unions". They will still let Churches marry people, but they will not officially recognize it as a marriage, but a civil union instead. Which basically they will give you a "Civil Union License", and it is your choice if you go to a Church that has the choice to offer you some formal Certificate of Marriage or the like.

Personally, I think the latter is the best route. The separation of church and state is something I completely agree with; and in my opinion, a state recognizing any marriage, crosses this line.

Just some thought I put into the subject since I had to vote on the subject.
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