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Old 05-08-2009, 03:11 AM
 
Location: Imaginary Figment
11,363 posts, read 8,109,917 times
Reputation: 4600

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Quote:
Originally Posted by momonkey View Post
I have heard the story of Japanese soldiers who used waterboarding against US soldiers being executed for doing so. And while I don't support torture, I also don't support what I see as a political witch hunt nor do I believe that the nonuniformed terrorists we have at GITMO and perhaps elsewhere are entitled to the same treatment that legitimate enemy soldiers are. So I would like to settle the matter once and for all. I've searched the Internet for anything reliable on the subject and have only come up with editorial pieces from less than reliable sources. The question I am asking is, Were Japanese soldiers really executed for the act of waterboarding US soldiers? If so, were other actions also involved such as punitive amputations and summary executions, or was the crime that led to their execution waterboarding alone?
There was a Japanese officer that was found guilty and sentenced to 15 yrs hard labor. I see you still haven't learned to use google yet?
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Old 05-08-2009, 04:54 AM
 
Location: Michigan
12,403 posts, read 6,593,304 times
Reputation: 3866
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omahabound View Post
I'd love to take some of the liberal fools in this forum and drop them off in some of the most dangerous places on the planet and in the most vulnerable of positions with a weapon to defend themselves and then when they do, drag them into court and force them to justify their actions and toss out all reason then convict them of war crimes. This is the position they want to put our soldiers in.
This "liberal" doesn't want American soldiers in any such position. Personally, I want them home, not traipsing all over creation making us more enemies we can't afford.

Quote:
No matter how clear it is in the Geneva Conventions that those who fight without a uniform are under absolutely no protection of law and can be summarily executed the second they take up arms
That is true. But what they can't be is tortured, under the United Nations Convention Against Torture.
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Old 05-08-2009, 07:51 AM
 
Location: San Diego, CA
4,884 posts, read 4,898,056 times
Reputation: 1861
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimw144 View Post
Oh for cripes sake.

Yokohama Reviews - Asano (http://socrates.berkeley.edu/%7Ewarcrime/Japan/Yokohama/Reviews/Yokohama_Review_Asano.htm - broken link)
The desperation of the right wing to avoid admitting torture is torture is... Torturous.
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Old 05-08-2009, 08:36 AM
 
29,259 posts, read 11,921,962 times
Reputation: 7769
Quote:
Originally Posted by GOPATTA2D View Post
The issue of whether they are POW's is irrelevant. The issue is larger: Islamic radicals will never sign a treaty. They don't care about international law. Geneva is just another city of infidels. We can't make them like us just by being nice to them. They are fighting a holy war to the death. They are committed to their cause. Read some of the excerpts from captured radicals at Gitmo: "If you release us, we will still try and kill you. We will never stop trying to kill you."

We cannot view this conflict as a traditional war, with rules and treaties. Visit any viral video site and watch a few of the videos coming out of these areas. They execute suspects in the street. They behead them in front of their kids.

My view: if we don't take the same measures against an enemy like them that they are willing to take against us, we cannot win. They do not care about who is President. Bush or Obama - both are infidels. The Taliban has stated that Obama changes nothing - the West must perish. Educate yourself.
The issue of torture isn't about how bad the bad guys are. It's about how good the good guys are. Good guys don't torture people. Ever. When you decide it's okay to torture someone, you become the bad guy. Torture is a bad thing. It's a bad thing that bad guys do, not good guys.

All these arguments, "if we don't take the same measures", are akin to a police force engaging in criminal activities to control criminals. Becoming criminals to defeat criminals. Becoming torturers to defeat torturers. You aren't defeating torturers if you are adding to their ranks.

When you engage in torture, you are showing weakness.
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Old 05-08-2009, 09:31 AM
 
Location: Harrisonville
1,832 posts, read 1,451,413 times
Reputation: 379
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omahabound View Post
I'd love to take some of the liberal fools in this forum and drop them off in some of the most dangerous places on the planet and in the most vulnerable of positions with a weapon to defend themselves and then when they do, drag them into court and force them to justify their actions and toss out all reason then convict them of war crimes. This is the position they want to put our soldiers in.

No matter how clear it is in the Geneva Conventions that those who fight without a uniform are under absolutely no protection of law and can be summarily executed the second they take up arms they still want to give these terrorists greater rights than our soldiers, sailors, Airmen, and Marines have. Their arrogant claims of being morally superior is great for safe, intellectual debates but i's treasonous when soldiers are in harms way keeping our mortal enemies at bay.
Everyone should have a hobby.
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Old 05-08-2009, 09:41 AM
 
Location: SE Arizona - FINALLY! :D
16,150 posts, read 14,212,672 times
Reputation: 4944
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge View Post
The issue of torture isn't about how bad the bad guys are. It's about how good the good guys are. Good guys don't torture people. Ever. When you decide it's okay to torture someone, you become the bad guy. Torture is a bad thing. It's a bad thing that bad guys do, not good guys.

All these arguments, "if we don't take the same measures", are akin to a police force engaging in criminal activities to control criminals. Becoming criminals to defeat criminals. Becoming torturers to defeat torturers. You aren't defeating torturers if you are adding to their ranks.

When you engage in torture, you are showing weakness.
Yup.
As Shep Smith so famously said on the air when told by a fellow FOX newscaster that torture "helped get information":

"WE ARE AMERICA! I DON'T GIVE A RAT'S *SS IF IT HELPS! WE ARE AMERICA! WE DO NOT F%$&ING TORTURE!!! DON'T DO IT!"


YouTube - Shepherd Smith drops F-bomb during Freedom Watch: We do not F%$&ing torture!!!

Gotta love Shep.

Ken
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Old 05-08-2009, 11:32 AM
 
Location: NW Nevada
7,166 posts, read 5,269,200 times
Reputation: 4937
Under some folks brand of logic, a whole lot of our troops in WW2 would be put on trial for 'war crimes'. The Germans and the Japanese methods of interrogation are well known. Many things happened out there in the Pacific islands actions, and in Europe as well, when our guys captured enemy troops and saw the things that had been done. Justice was delivered on the spot, and there was no wild howling about that being done either. The publicized 'war crimes trials' ( Nuremburge jumps out) did not even scratch the surface of what the Axis did in the war. The Japanese did things that made the Germans look like choir boys, but such was their culture. When our guys caught up with this stuff in the field, they were hardly tolerant of it. Many acts of brutal revenge went down, with no cries for our troops to be charged with 'war crimes'. Thousands of incidents of enemy troops and other personnel being 'tortured', executed, etc happened. It was retribution for far worse acts. I grew up on grandpas and Dads war stories. The things that happened in WW2 would be seen as quite brutal by todays standards. Many was the Japanese or German soldier who took a few rifle butts to the head and was finished off with a bayonet after capture. You don't need to Google a search on this if you were born before 1980 or so. So, with all the hoopla over 'torture' of terrorists at Gitmo, would all the folks who want our guys charged for 'war crimes' wish us to go back to WW2, Korea, and Viet Nam and charge those guys as well? They exacted their own justice , in the field, many many times and it was not always done quickly and humanely. So, the execution of Japanese soldiers for waterboarding? Lol, the Japanese didn't believe in waterboarding. Not effective enough. Bambbo slivers under the fingernails, urinating in open wounds, hanging guys upside down in Binjo ditches, disemboweling, strapping down on piles of nasy ants after slicing a guy up with a knife, yea. But waterboaring? LMAO, only if a guy cooperated and they liked him.
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Old 05-08-2009, 11:45 AM
 
29,259 posts, read 11,921,962 times
Reputation: 7769
Quote:
Originally Posted by NVplumber View Post
Under some folks brand of logic, a whole lot of our troops in WW2 would be put on trial for 'war crimes'. The Germans and the Japanese methods of interrogation are well known. Many things happened out there in the Pacific islands actions, and in Europe as well, when our guys captured enemy troops and saw the things that had been done. Justice was delivered on the spot, and there was no wild howling about that being done either. The publicized 'war crimes trials' ( Nuremburge jumps out) did not even scratch the surface of what the Axis did in the war. The Japanese did things that made the Germans look like choir boys, but such was their culture. When our guys caught up with this stuff in the field, they were hardly tolerant of it. Many acts of brutal revenge went down, with no cries for our troops to be charged with 'war crimes'. Thousands of incidents of enemy troops and other personnel being 'tortured', executed, etc happened. It was retribution for far worse acts. I grew up on grandpas and Dads war stories. The things that happened in WW2 would be seen as quite brutal by todays standards. Many was the Japanese or German soldier who took a few rifle butts to the head and was finished off with a bayonet after capture. You don't need to Google a search on this if you were born before 1980 or so. So, with all the hoopla over 'torture' of terrorists at Gitmo, would all the folks who want our guys charged for 'war crimes' wish us to go back to WW2, Korea, and Viet Nam and charge those guys as well? They exacted their own justice , in the field, many many times and it was not always done quickly and humanely. So, the execution of Japanese soldiers for waterboarding? Lol, the Japanese didn't believe in waterboarding. Not effective enough. Bambbo slivers under the fingernails, urinating in open wounds, hanging guys upside down in Binjo ditches, disemboweling, strapping down on piles of nasy ants after slicing a guy up with a knife, yea. But waterboaring? LMAO, only if a guy cooperated and they liked him.
There is a profound difference between a nation endorsing the practice of torture, and incidents of brutality on the battlefield. The issue isn't about a soldier, acting on his own, brutalizing the enemy. The issue is a soldier, acting on the authority of the President of the United States, engaging in a practice which we, as a nation, had previously recognized as torture, and which we, as a nation, had agreed in international treaties, not to engage in.

Bad things happen during wars. No one is arguing that they don't. Soldiers under the stress of the battlefield cross lines. No one is arguing that they don't. Torturous conditions may occur on the battlefield. But the act of torture does not. The conscious act of torture is conducted on someone who can't fight back. Someone who is at your mercy. Torture is conducted with specific goals. To elicit information, to compel confession, to force conversion. Another poster says beheading is torture. Beheading is execution. The torture is what happens beforehand.

One of the fundamentals of being an American is that we are a humanitarian country. We have a Bill of Rights to protect the rights of the underdog, the minority, the person without power. We're not the country that tortures people we have captured, disarmed, and imprisoned. So when our country endorses the practice of torture, we've undermined everything that's supposed to be good about America. The debate over this issue isn't if torture is good or bad, it's clearly bad. The debate is whether what we gained by torture is worth what we lost. What we lost was a piece of our national identity.
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Old 05-08-2009, 11:45 AM
 
Location: SE Arizona - FINALLY! :D
16,150 posts, read 14,212,672 times
Reputation: 4944
Quote:
Originally Posted by NVplumber View Post
Under some folks brand of logic, a whole lot of our troops in WW2 would be put on trial for 'war crimes'. The Germans and the Japanese methods of interrogation are well known. Many things happened out there in the Pacific islands actions, and in Europe as well, when our guys captured enemy troops and saw the things that had been done. Justice was delivered on the spot, and there was no wild howling about that being done either. The publicized 'war crimes trials' ( Nuremburge jumps out) did not even scratch the surface of what the Axis did in the war. The Japanese did things that made the Germans look like choir boys, but such was their culture. When our guys caught up with this stuff in the field, they were hardly tolerant of it. Many acts of brutal revenge went down, with no cries for our troops to be charged with 'war crimes'. Thousands of incidents of enemy troops and other personnel being 'tortured', executed, etc happened. It was retribution for far worse acts. I grew up on grandpas and Dads war stories. The things that happened in WW2 would be seen as quite brutal by todays standards. Many was the Japanese or German soldier who took a few rifle butts to the head and was finished off with a bayonet after capture. You don't need to Google a search on this if you were born before 1980 or so. So, with all the hoopla over 'torture' of terrorists at Gitmo, would all the folks who want our guys charged for 'war crimes' wish us to go back to WW2, Korea, and Viet Nam and charge those guys as well? They exacted their own justice , in the field, many many times and it was not always done quickly and humanely.
Most certainly there were crimes committed in the field (by BOTH sides) - and MOST (by BOTH sides) were overlooked. What was NOT overlooked though was when PRISONERS were abused and tortured. There's a reason for this - while troops in the field are most certainly under stress and duress and clearly behave badly from time to time, guards and questioners safe at home or far behind the lines can't make that claim. What they did was calm, cool, calculated and deliberate. THAT makes a lot of difference. It wasn't something done in the heat of the moment. It was in a locale where the prisoner was entirely at the mercy of his captors - captors who were in no immediate danger, under no particularly critical stress, captors who really can point to no mitigating circumstances at all except for the fact that "this guy" has information we want". It was something that was done simply because the guards were able to do it, and it was designated as "policy" to do so.

Ken
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Old 05-08-2009, 12:38 PM
 
Location: NW Nevada
7,166 posts, read 5,269,200 times
Reputation: 4937
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge View Post
There is a profound difference between a nation endorsing the practice of torture, and incidents of brutality on the battlefield. The issue isn't about a soldier, acting on his own, brutalizing the enemy. The issue is a soldier, acting on the authority of the President of the United States, engaging in a practice which we, as a nation, had previously recognized as torture, and which we, as a nation, had agreed in international treaties, not to engage in.

Bad things happen during wars. No one is arguing that they don't. Soldiers under the stress of the battlefield cross lines. No one is arguing that they don't. Torturous conditions may occur on the battlefield. But the act of torture does not. The conscious act of torture is conducted on someone who can't fight back. Someone who is at your mercy. Torture is conducted with specific goals. To elicit information, to compel confession, to force conversion. Another poster says beheading is torture. Beheading is execution. The torture is what happens beforehand.

One of the fundamentals of being an American is that we are a humanitarian country. We have a Bill of Rights to protect the rights of the underdog, the minority, the person without power. We're not the country that tortures people we have captured, disarmed, and imprisoned. So when our country endorses the practice of torture, we've undermined everything that's supposed to be good about America. The debate over this issue isn't if torture is good or bad, it's clearly bad. The debate is whether what we gained by torture is worth what we lost. What we lost was a piece of our national identity.
While I understand your points, I think that the mentality of war, both on and off the battlefield,has become far to sanitary in the US today. There is nothing to be gained and everything to lose in treating enemy combatants with regard to their 'rights'. To a point, perhaps, but the enemy should fear us, and they don't. With good reason. My views on this stem from a more practical and less esoteric study of warfare. Intelligence must be gathered, we must know what our enemy knows. How that information is gained is secondary to obtaining it if it leads to an advantage. The greatest military minds in history support this view. Now, I understand your point that we are America, and this is not our way, we don't use brutal methods etc etc etc. However, if we are going to prevail against our enemies, we must understand that they are NOT Americans, thus they do not think or believe as we do. They must be dealt with using tactics and methodology they understand. " Know your enemy and know yourself and in a thousand battles, you will never be in peril." To defeat your enemy, you must BE your enemy. If we are unwilling to do what must be done to win, we should not fight at all. Unfortunately, I do not think, as things stand, that this nation is ready for war. Not even one in which we are justified. There is to large a segment of the population, that is very vocal, that thinks we should not fight, no matter the circumstances. Let alone fight to win. 'Helpless enemies' being abused in camps (by waterboarding and sleep deprivation?) has these folks in an uproar? All the while our enemies carve up their prisoners and brutalize them with methods that would make Hideki Tojo wince. We cannot use kindness and understanding with an enemy that would gladly kill their own children for a chance to kill us, and then blame us for MAKING them kill their children to get that chance. But I digress, were Japanese executed for waterboarding in WW2? Probably. But there was more to it than that I'm sure. As to bad things going down on the battlefield, if the things I talked about in my first post were to happen on todays battlefield, there would be howls for our soldiers to be strung up for 'war crimes'. If our guys come upon an enemy torture camp, found some of their buddies chopped into dog meat, and killed the captured enemy in retribution they would be crucified for it. With no consideration given them as to what the enemy had done to warrant their actions. I find that thought ....distasteful...to say the least.
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