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Old 07-30-2006, 04:59 PM
 
1,868 posts, read 5,138,216 times
Reputation: 524

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Quote:
Originally Posted by enviroman
Let me dissect your post so that we can break down each of your "thoughts."



Any university or college that is even remotely average is a not-for-profit institution. Name for me one university or college that cracks the US News top 200 universities/colleges that is for-profit. You won't find one.



I know you don't realize this but universities depend on alumni to give back to fund their endowment. The better their graduates perform in the workplace, the more money the university gets. Also, better graduates reflect a better university. A better image gets better students to apply.



Uh, that might be true in some cases, but what about state schools with low tuition? Federal grants? Scholarships? That doesn't even take into account parental assistance, if any. This sort of blanket statement really shows you know little-to-nothing about college.



Wow. Just...wow. But then again you did write this:




Oh please....dissect more of my posts...it's very entertaining. Maybe you could learn to read between the lines. Every single one of your posts on this subject remind me of the "intoxication" I was talking about.
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Old 07-30-2006, 05:25 PM
 
158 posts, read 742,180 times
Reputation: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by shannon94
Oh please....dissect more of my posts...it's very entertaining. Maybe you could learn to read between the lines. Every single one of your posts on this subject remind me of the "intoxication" I was talking about.
You didn't refute a single thing I said. In fact, you decided to completely skirt the issue with some sort of lame attempt at a veiled insult.

I'd be more than happy to discuss why I feel your points are shortsighted if you feel like doing it in a civil manner.

For example, I assume this "intoxication" refers to how you perceive people with college degrees act toward people without degrees. Often those without degrees will act defensively toward those with degrees when the topic of the value of college arises.

The notion that college is a scam is silly. The idea that people without college degrees will be as successful as those with degrees (in terms of financial success) is just not accurate. I'd be more than happy to debate anyone who feels differently...and by debate, I don't mean resorting to ad hominem attacks. An actual intellectual debate on the issue, including the pros and cons of the post-graduate education system.
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Old 07-30-2006, 09:17 PM
 
1,868 posts, read 5,138,216 times
Reputation: 524
Quote:
Originally Posted by enviroman
You didn't refute a single thing I said. In fact, you decided to completely skirt the issue with some sort of lame attempt at a veiled insult.

I'd be more than happy to discuss why I feel your points are shortsighted if you feel like doing it in a civil manner.

For example, I assume this "intoxication" refers to how you perceive people with college degrees act toward people without degrees. Often those without degrees will act defensively toward those with degrees when the topic of the value of college arises.

The notion that college is a scam is silly. The idea that people without college degrees will be as successful as those with degrees (in terms of financial success) is just not accurate. I'd be more than happy to debate anyone who feels differently...and by debate, I don't mean resorting to ad hominem attacks. An actual intellectual debate on the issue, including the pros and cons of the post-graduate education system.
I make broad statements by design. Academic jousting over technicalities takes the focus off the big picture which for the majority of Americans is a net negative. Maybe I havent been clear, but what I mean to imply is we've created for ourselves a whole host of problems because humanity insists on perpetuating destructive behaviors. If you prefer to think that I am skirting an issue, you'd be correct, because it doesn't serve my purpose.
Regarding "intoxication" not even you are aware of the depths of your own pride. People are constantly searching for something that will make them powerful. If it cant be done through natural selection, it can be done on a football field, in the sack, in the business world ....and yes, in the classroom. You see it's not knowledge I detest but what it often exists for.
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Old 07-31-2006, 08:57 AM
 
158 posts, read 742,180 times
Reputation: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by shannon94
I make broad statements by design. Academic jousting over technicalities takes the focus off the big picture which for the majority of Americans is a net negative. Maybe I havent been clear, but what I mean to imply is we've created for ourselves a whole host of problems because humanity insists on perpetuating destructive behaviors. If you prefer to think that I am skirting an issue, you'd be correct, because it doesn't serve my purpose.
Regarding "intoxication" not even you are aware of the depths of your own pride. People are constantly searching for something that will make them powerful. If it cant be done through natural selection, it can be done on a football field, in the sack, in the business world ....and yes, in the classroom. You see it's not knowledge I detest but what it often exists for.
I'm not sure how you can spin furthering one's education into some sort of destructive behavior. You say that people want more "power." You even mentioned "natural selection." Being able to outperform others in your species, to be fitter than others, is part of all animal behavior, including the animals known as humans. As much as it annoys certain people to hear, everyone is not created equal. If you want to talk about the big picture, it doesn't get much bigger than evolution of species.


I'm curious...could you expand on what you consider to be destructive behavior? If we take it at its most literal of meanings, you'd be referring to things like global war. The pursuit of power is often a motivator for war. What's another major cause for war? Religion. Are you referring to other destructive behaviors?
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Old 07-31-2006, 08:59 AM
 
6,764 posts, read 19,279,691 times
Reputation: 4664
Good point, Shannon, about 'liberal arts' degrees. It seems that unless you are a number cruncher at a Fortune 500 company (and how many people are doing THAT?) people view you as 'not successful' or 'lacking drive' or 'stupid for not 'exploiting' your degree(s).

I'd rather be happy with myself making $6.50 an hour than ripping people off as a lawyer or 'high finance guy' making a few hundred thousand a year.

I think the AVERAGE person cannot achieve the American dream because most people DO NOT work at jobs that can support the inflated costs of housing, transportation and childcare.

My parent had a home and three kids in a good area on my fathers NON college (but white collar) job in Purchasing thirty-forty years ago. We went to private school, as well, until 6th grade.

Today those same things are out of reach for the 'average' white collar worker.

That's my point...salaries HAVE not kept up with the cost of things.

As for 'giving money back to my college or grad school" I doubt I would EVER give them another dime. Why? Because I paid them for 'services rendered' in my tuition. Why should I give them any more money?

By the way, "Environman" I actually did APPLY myself, graduating with honors in both undergrad school AND working fulltime while getting an A- average in graduate school. Please explain how you think I have not 'applied myself?' (not become a 'lawyer'?)
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Old 07-31-2006, 09:05 AM
 
46 posts, read 238,219 times
Reputation: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by enviroman
Um, an English degree is only as useless as the person that earned it. I know people with English degrees that are financial analysts at Goldman Sachs. Many, many of the nation's top law schools are packed with English majors. A competent English major can write and research better than most other majors. If you don't think being able to write well is a desirable job trait...well, I can say with 100% certainty that you are wrong.
True, "an English degree is only as useless as the person that earned it."

True or False? "I know people with English degrees that are financial analysts at Goldman Sachs." But how many of those went on to get an MBA?

True, "Many, many of the nation's top law schools are packed with English majors." But then, many people with useless degrees go on to law school. And, perhaps I shouldn't use that term, useless, so cavalierly. IMHO, however, there are too many undergrads that are not being counceled well, and they are picking majors that are not leading to satisfying careers, unless they go on and get an advanced degree.
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Old 07-31-2006, 09:49 AM
 
158 posts, read 742,180 times
Reputation: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by GypsySoul22
Good point, Shannon, about 'liberal arts' degrees. It seems that unless you are a number cruncher at a Fortune 500 company (and how many people are doing THAT?) people view you as 'not successful' or 'lacking drive' or 'stupid for not 'exploiting' your degree(s).

I'd rather be happy with myself making $6.50 an hour than ripping people off as a lawyer or 'high finance guy' making a few hundred thousand a year.

I think the AVERAGE person cannot achieve the American dream because most people DO NOT work at jobs that can support the inflated costs of housing, transportation and childcare.

My parent had a home and three kids in a good area on my fathers NON college (but white collar) job in Purchasing thirty-forty years ago. We went to private school, as well, until 6th grade.

Today those same things are out of reach for the 'average' white collar worker.
That doesn't make sense. The average person is a blue collar worker and lives in a home, right? The average family person living outside of a city isn't renting an apartment...

Obviously, someone has made you feel very inferior for not being in a 6-figure job. I think teaching is a very good profession. You might not be as financially successful as a financial banker but that doesn't make you a failure. You appear to be very defeated...

Quote:

By the way, "Environman" I actually did APPLY myself, graduating with honors in both undergrad school AND working fulltime while getting an A- average in graduate school. Please explain how you think I have not 'applied myself?' (not become a 'lawyer'?)
Well, you described yourself as a "failure." You have two degrees (one of which is a postgraduate degree) yet you claim you cannot achieve what you want to achieve (the "American Dream"). You are using specious reasoning here...you claim that because you didn't meet your goals that college is a scam. Don't you see how illogical that is?

Maybe you are in a bad market for teachers. Maybe the schools where you received your degrees are less-than-desirable. Maybe you need to relocate to an area where the cost of living is lower. I know plenty of teachers that don't cry poormouth. Teaching isn't the highest paying profession but it's not exactly $6/hour either. My High School, for example, currently starts teachers at $38,000/year for those with a BA and $45,000 for those with a master's. That might not be enough to own a home in my area (not too far off, though) but coupled with another income it is plenty.

It just seems that you are very quick to put your troubles on the "college system" rather than evaluate your own situation to see where the problem may lie. That's what I meant by not applying yourself.
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Old 07-31-2006, 09:57 AM
 
158 posts, read 742,180 times
Reputation: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by B'Goshboy
True, "an English degree is only as useless as the person that earned it."

True or False? "I know people with English degrees that are financial analysts at Goldman Sachs." But how many of those went on to get an MBA?

True, "Many, many of the nation's top law schools are packed with English majors." But then, many people with useless degrees go on to law school. And, perhaps I shouldn't use that term, useless, so cavalierly. IMHO, however, there are too many undergrads that are not being counceled well, and they are picking majors that are not leading to satisfying careers, unless they go on and get an advanced degree.
Well, none of them have received their MBAs, but, yeah, they'll probably get an MBA someday. That doesn't make their English degree any less important, does it? It's what got them into that position at GS.

Well, yeah, someone won't go on to do much with something like a BA in History if they don't have either an advanced degree or some other skill (like a double major or a minor). I don't think it's useless, as that person with the degree will still have a leg up on those without. When I worked for a bank in high school, they used to hire people with "useless" degrees over non-degree holders all of the time. This was for jobs that require no degree. So, I think it's impossible to say it's "useless."
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Old 07-31-2006, 06:53 PM
 
1,868 posts, read 5,138,216 times
Reputation: 524
Quote:
Originally Posted by GypsySoul22
Good point, Shannon, about 'liberal arts' degrees. It seems that unless you are a number cruncher at a Fortune 500 company (and how many people are doing THAT?) people view you as 'not successful' or 'lacking drive' or 'stupid for not 'exploiting' your degree(s).

I'd rather be happy with myself making $6.50 an hour than ripping people off as a lawyer or 'high finance guy' making a few hundred thousand a year.

I think the AVERAGE person cannot achieve the American dream because most people DO NOT work at jobs that can support the inflated costs of housing, transportation and childcare.

My parent had a home and three kids in a good area on my fathers NON college (but white collar) job in Purchasing thirty-forty years ago. We went to private school, as well, until 6th grade.

Today those same things are out of reach for the 'average' white collar worker.

That's my point...salaries HAVE not kept up with the cost of things.

As for 'giving money back to my college or grad school" I doubt I would EVER give them another dime. Why? Because I paid them for 'services rendered' in my tuition. Why should I give them any more money?

By the way, "Environman" I actually did APPLY myself, graduating with honors in both undergrad school AND working fulltime while getting an A- average in graduate school. Please explain how you think I have not 'applied myself?' (not become a 'lawyer'?)

I get what your saying. My husband is one of those "high finance " guys and lately he has been hating every minute of it. We are fortunate that we have realized the "american dream", but it hasn't closed our eyes to what's going on out there for other individuals.
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Old 07-31-2006, 07:40 PM
 
158 posts, read 742,180 times
Reputation: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by shannon94
I get what your saying. My husband is one of those "high finance " guys and lately he has been hating every minute of it. We are fortunate that we have realized the "american dream", but it hasn't closed our eyes to what's going on out there for other individuals.
So, you are reaping the rewards of a lifestyle that is reliant on college education; however, you rail against the college education system in the US. Isn't the the definition of hypocrisy?
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