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Old 07-31-2006, 08:29 PM
 
1,868 posts, read 5,141,740 times
Reputation: 525

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Quote:
Originally Posted by enviroman
So, you are reaping the rewards of a lifestyle that is reliant on college education; however, you rail against the college education system in the US. Isn't the the definition of hypocrisy?
No, it's a paradox.
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Old 02-01-2008, 07:22 PM
 
Location: Old Town Alexandria
14,506 posts, read 23,198,023 times
Reputation: 8833
Exclamation The American Dream- a lost illusion

many posters reflecting that the US will always have service jobs and retail, regardless of outsourcing, are clearly in denial.

As more and more mid and upper level positions are outsourced, the US become a wasteland of strip malls; restaurants, retail, and cell phone vendors. Recent college graduates, depending on their location, leave for urban areas which still offer a modicum of opportunity.

What is everyone else's opinion?

Last edited by dreamofmonterey; 02-01-2008 at 07:23 PM.. Reason: please move to P and OC!
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Old 02-01-2008, 07:56 PM
 
Location: DFW, TX
2,935 posts, read 6,017,899 times
Reputation: 571
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamofmonterey View Post
many posters reflecting that the US will always have service jobs and retail, regardless of outsourcing, are clearly in denial.

As more and more mid and upper level positions are outsourced, the US become a wasteland of strip malls; restaurants, retail, and cell phone vendors. Recent college graduates, depending on their location, leave for urban areas which still offer a modicum of opportunity.

What is everyone else's opinion?
I think the term you are looking for is offshoring moreso than outsourcing. A global economy will bring us closer to an equalization point. It's already evident in India where programmers are demanding a higher salary because there is a higher demand that even their large talent pool can not fill. As their salaries increase, the desirability to offshore to India lessens, while it becomes more economical to hire people in Iowa or Kansas where there's a low cost of living and huge benefits of cultural parity with the clients.

It's way more complex than you're making it out to be.
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Old 02-02-2008, 02:39 AM
 
13,468 posts, read 14,464,608 times
Reputation: 7651
Quote:
Originally Posted by twojciac View Post
I think the term you are looking for is offshoring moreso than outsourcing. A global economy will bring us closer to an equalization point. It's already evident in India where programmers are demanding a higher salary because there is a higher demand that even their large talent pool can not fill. As their salaries increase, the desirability to offshore to India lessens, while it becomes more economical to hire people in Iowa or Kansas where there's a low cost of living and huge benefits of cultural parity with the clients.

It's way more complex than you're making it out to be.
Interesting post. First time I've seen that stated anywhere.
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Old 02-02-2008, 04:52 AM
 
120 posts, read 88,262 times
Reputation: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamofmonterey View Post
many posters reflecting that the US will always have service jobs and retail, regardless of outsourcing, are clearly in denial.

As more and more mid and upper level positions are outsourced, the US become a wasteland of strip malls; restaurants, retail, and cell phone vendors. Recent college graduates, depending on their location, leave for urban areas which still offer a modicum of opportunity.

What is everyone else's opinion?
I think you are right on!
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Old 02-02-2008, 07:16 AM
 
746 posts, read 612,378 times
Reputation: 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by twojciac View Post
I think the term you are looking for is offshoring moreso than outsourcing. A global economy will bring us closer to an equalization point. It's already evident in India where programmers are demanding a higher salary because there is a higher demand that even their large talent pool can not fill. As their salaries increase, the desirability to offshore to India lessens, while it becomes more economical to hire people in Iowa or Kansas where there's a low cost of living and huge benefits of cultural parity with the clients.

It's way more complex than you're making it out to be.

Twojciac, excellent point. Yes, this is way more of a complex issue. Outsourcing work is not a bad thing for the economy at all. Competition in workers is a great thing for the America ecnomomy, because it forces workers who were previously doing labor intensive jobs into other fields of economic pursuit to which they are more aptly able to compete.

However, going back to your well made point. Eventually, those jobs that are outsourced will come back when companies find it is much cheaper to employ that talent within the US. One day manufuacturing will come back to the US, if the cost to employ Chinese labor begins to substantially increase. Labor Unions are a big reason why those jobs left in the first place. Sure, American compaines will do what in the best interst of shareholders and that's to competitively look for the cheapest labor in a free market. However, i do not get why everyone is doom and gloom these sorts of market forces are great for our country. Those that can no longer work in the manufacturing will see there children as the technology mavens of the future, because they will stress getting a college degree, because a high school diploma is no longer relevent to our economy. Also workers without college degrees will shift to new fields that better suit them.

In reference to the American Dream it is my understanding most in America are living that drea. I think home ownership is in the 70% range and most people have a steady pension, are married, and have adult children, and perhaps grand children. What is the new definition of the American dream?
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Old 02-02-2008, 09:36 AM
 
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
5,217 posts, read 4,115,850 times
Reputation: 908
Quote:
Originally Posted by truthhurts View Post
Twojciac, excellent point. Yes, this is way more of a complex issue. Outsourcing work is not a bad thing for the economy at all. Competition in workers is a great thing for the America ecnomomy, because it forces workers who were previously doing labor intensive jobs into other fields of economic pursuit to which they are more aptly able to compete.

However, going back to your well made point. Eventually, those jobs that are outsourced will come back when companies find it is much cheaper to employ that talent within the US. One day manufuacturing will come back to the US, if the cost to employ Chinese labor begins to substantially increase. Labor Unions are a big reason why those jobs left in the first place. Sure, American compaines will do what in the best interst of shareholders and that's to competitively look for the cheapest labor in a free market. However, i do not get why everyone is doom and gloom these sorts of market forces are great for our country. Those that can no longer work in the manufacturing will see there children as the technology mavens of the future, because they will stress getting a college degree, because a high school diploma is no longer relevent to our economy. Also workers without college degrees will shift to new fields that better suit them.

In reference to the American Dream it is my understanding most in America are living that drea. I think home ownership is in the 70% range and most people have a steady pension, are married, and have adult children, and perhaps grand children. What is the new definition of the American dream?

the older generation is living that dream.. but their adult children raising kids certainly aren't. Why?
Homeonwnership is up , yes.. but that was because of the decreased interest rates, which lead to increase in purchases but also pushed prices out of reach of many whos dream it was to own their own home.. some stretched to get that home only to find that they overstretched.. so watch homeownership go down yet again.
Health insurance costs are way out of hand and unaffordable for many, inculding employers
Oil prices are ridiculous, which raises EVERYTHING to ridiculous levels.. a gallon of milk is over $4.00!
Car prices.. back in our parents day it WAS possible to buy a car with some money saved.. one that is reliable.. Car prices today are insane as well.. and are upwards of $20K.
Social Security is being sucked dry..so the dream of retiring and collecting that SS that you worked so hard and put money in won't be there.
That leaves 401K's.. well if you're middle income struggling just to pay your basic bills... you can forget about being able to save in a 401K... maybe our parents did..but a lot of us aren't able too

The idea of every generation is to provide our kids with abetter life, or at best the great life that we all had. That meant that if you grew up in a middle income household and your parents owned their home that you grew up in for 20 something years, you expected to do the same.. go to school, get a job, get married, get that house , car, babies..etc. However, the cost of thigns have risen so high that now in order to afford just to have the minimum requires you to go into debt that never seems to end!

Sorry to be so bleak.. I just feel so exasperated and exhausted by it all!
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Old 02-02-2008, 09:50 AM
 
2,049 posts, read 1,754,521 times
Reputation: 1424
the american dream is a joke, it died a long time ago, the only people living the american dream are the rich while the rest of us heel to our masters

you know why they call it the american dream, because you have to be asleep to experience it.
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Old 02-02-2008, 10:16 AM
 
Location: Arizona
5,396 posts, read 6,919,699 times
Reputation: 1197
Quote:
Originally Posted by twojciac View Post
I think the term you are looking for is offshoring moreso than outsourcing. A global economy will bring us closer to an equalization point. It's already evident in India where programmers are demanding a higher salary because there is a higher demand that even their large talent pool can not fill. As their salaries increase, the desirability to offshore to India lessens, while it becomes more economical to hire people in Iowa or Kansas where there's a low cost of living and huge benefits of cultural parity with the clients.

It's way more complex than you're making it out to be.
Unfortunately... the trend most multinationals follow is then to seek out other still "untouched" low cost regions to go exploit for their labor, with the added benefit of opening up new markets for their product.

From what I am seeing VietNam is now becoming big for the next offshoring opportunity.

There is also a trend occurring with some companies coming back from China and returning to this hemisphere, due to the long leadtimes/quality issues/risk. Most of them are returning or going to Mexico, however. With NAFTA leadtimes to anywhere in the United States are just days.

Eventually the overall balance may tip enough to where U.S. makes financial sense to return to for manufacturing, but we are a ways away from that happening.
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Old 02-02-2008, 12:37 PM
 
310 posts, read 257,895 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkm370 View Post
the american dream is a joke, it died a long time ago, the only people living the american dream are the rich while the rest of us heel to our masters

you know why they call it the american dream, because you have to be asleep to experience it.
Totally agree!

The "American Dream" is reserved for those who are already wealthy or always have been.

It's rapidly becomming more of a Nightmare to an ever-increasing segment of society thesedays........and in many cases, it doesn't matter if you have a college degree or not!

The sheer cost to obtain a degree, or better yet.....a higher degree......is no longer really worth it when it puts a young person so deep in debt that NOTHING short of a $75K STARTING salary......or higher..... and with REAL job security for the long run....will suffice at repaying that college debt!
WHERE ARE THESE JOBS in MASS nowadays?
NOT HERE in the "Good 'ole USA.....that's for sure!

Now.....many "white-collar" and "middle-class" folks with YEARS of experience, knowledge and education.....ARE being let go due to LACK of growth within the Corporate sector, offshoring, outsourcing and sheer LOSS of manufacturing of much ANYTHING the rest of the world even wants!

Sorry.......but I no longer believe there's much of a "dream" anymore for younger generations especially......only a rapid decrease in the "standard of living" and QUALITY of it!

Can't help but think that the aging "Baby Boomers" who are now beginning to retire and will gradually NEED "Assisted Living" more and more.......will place a HUGE demand on better healthcare and retirement homes......along with all the great jobs associated with "taking care" of a HUGE population of "Boomers."

Great!.......Anyone suggest I waste a LOT of money and time, go deep in debt to get that precious degree so I can achieve my "American Dream" of cleaning BED PANS for hopefully, $10.00/hour?
FORGET IT!

Won't raise a finger to help someone who was able to acquire the "American Dream", grow old and enjoy their "Golden Years" in style and comfort.......for LESS than $200.00/hour.......because THAT IS WHAT it WILL COST ya' for ME to come close to achieving MY idea of the "American Dream by taking care of your old butts!!!!"

If selfishness and GREED got you YOUR dream..........then, I have to assume......it would for me too!
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