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Actually I wasn't referring to the GDP in saying that was a limited picture (I was referring to the dates shown). There were many recessions prior to 1970s that could give a good outlook on how and when recessions recovered.
Well if you find accurate RGDP stats from prior to 1970 I will gladly put them in the spreadsheet..
Quote:
Originally Posted by y2flyy
In regards to Bush (I am a little partial though) b/c like Hoover, I feel Bush is much to blame for this mess and ONLY tried to do things when it was too little too late (again much like Hoover).
Hoover's problem was that he had nothing to base a plan on.. He didn't know what would work and what would not work because it had never happened before. As for Bush, I do not believe there was much he could have done to stave off recession.
Quote:
Originally Posted by y2flyy
If you recall Hoover believed in a volunteer structure that the economy will correct itself. That was of course until the Country fell apart at his hands, then he attempted to do something (i.e. Federal Home Loan Bank Act of 1932 & Emergency Relief and Construction Act (RFC) of 1932) but again all that was too little too late and should have been his policy from the start of the Recession of 1929.
So again Bush's polices during late 2008 is very similar to Hoover's in 1932 in my opinion
I suppose I can agree with that..
Quote:
Originally Posted by y2flyy
Lastly I think you and Conservatives in general give very little alarm when it comes to recession or Economic Crisis. I apologize if I am being too broad but your post talk about recessions as if they are paper cuts or splinters....
That is part of the psychology of a recession. If you acknowledge a recession, people get scared, they stop spending, and everything goes down hill from there. Media sensationalism certainly does not help.
Quote:
Originally Posted by y2flyy
Like I said when it comes to people losing Jobs, Homes and business it is much more serious than just saying Look on yonder thee problems whee solve themselves!
The political aspect of the economy is in the recovery process. Simple as that. Presidents that go in with a plan fare better than those who do not. We always see sharp upswings after recession, and I bet next year you will believe the same.
Location: I currently exist only in a state of mind. one too complex for geographic location.
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people stopped buying american because low price was more important to them then supporting american jobs. if people didn't love wal mart, they wouldn't make so much money. I buy american every chance I get. it took me several months of looking to find an american made mountain bike, but I found it. paid lots of money for it too, but it is made in america. I also support local business. I don't go to mcdonalds. I go to local burger joints and farmers markets. if there wasn't a market for cheap crap made in china, they wouldn't make cheap crap in china. it's the uninformed consumers fault.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lamexican
Yet the middle class was at its strongest when the unions were. They both seem to have declined together. What is your explanation for that?
people stopped buying american because low price was more important to them then supporting american jobs. if people didn't love wal mart, they wouldn't make so much money. I buy american every chance I get. it took me several months of looking to find an american made mountain bike, but I found it. paid lots of money for it too, but it is made in america. I also support local business. I don't go to mcdonalds. I go to local burger joints and farmers markets. if there wasn't a market for cheap crap made in china, they wouldn't make cheap crap in china. it's the uninformed consumers fault.
I apologize for getting between you and lamexican, but this response has nothing to do with what you quoted.
Offshoring is irrelevant to the correlation between union membership and the middle class.
Well if you find accurate RGDP stats from prior to 1970 I will gladly put them in the spreadsheet..
Hoover's problem was that he had nothing to base a plan on.. He didn't know what would work and what would not work because it had never happened before. As for Bush, I do not believe there was much he could have done to stave off recession.
I suppose I can agree with that..
That is part of the psychology of a recession. If you acknowledge a recession, people get scared, they stop spending, and everything goes down hill from there. Media sensationalism certainly does not help.
The political aspect of the economy is in the recovery process. Simple as that. Presidents that go in with a plan fare better than those who do not. We always see sharp upswings after recession, and I bet next year you will believe the same.
You make great points Frankie! That is the first time I've heard that legitimate excuse (for lack of a better term) that Hoover did not have anything to base on. You are 100% correct, Hoover went on his instinct on what worked for him as a world renowned Humanitarian during the 1910s-1920s
Which was people volunteering and getting involved can resolve the biggest problems in the world. So again you can look at it that his policy of handling the Recession was an extension of his philosophy that made him so successful and enduring around the world....
Although I do disagree with you heavily on that Bush could not have done much....
I assert the exact opposite. I believe that if we had an intelligent and active President who believed in Government Regulation and actually recognizing problems (remember the Economy to Bush was "sound" up until Late 2008 even though the Recession and downturn started in mid-2007)
I believe this economic crisis could have been easily avoided with a more capable and active President
people stopped buying american because low price was more important to them then supporting american jobs. if people didn't love wal mart, they wouldn't make so much money. I buy american every chance I get. it took me several months of looking to find an american made mountain bike, but I found it. paid lots of money for it too, but it is made in america. I also support local business. I don't go to mcdonalds. I go to local burger joints and farmers markets. if there wasn't a market for cheap crap made in china, they wouldn't make cheap crap in china. it's the uninformed consumers fault.
Thank you for supporting small and local business,I do the same. I don't see how the relevancy to the decline of the middle class and he decline of union influence.
That is party true. An increase in taxes can translate to higher prices across the board, however, it is a short term fixed cost, and does not usually last in the long run due to the laws of supply and demand.
Taxes are not a fixed cost, but I agree with everything else. However, a few percentage points either way will not affect price. Of course, this depends on the industry and the company itself. Furthermore, a company with high sales volume can recover lost revenue with a small increase in price.
Location: I currently exist only in a state of mind. one too complex for geographic location.
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Reputation: 670
I can give you a reason for the decline of the middle class that most people don't think of. lots of americans have entitlement disease. what once was earned is now expected. we have an instant gratification mentality. how many people do you know that carpool? my father did for 20 years. I was the youngest of 3 boys and ALL my stuff was handed down. people don't do that now because of the keeping up with the jones's mentality. their kid has to be the cutest and the only way to make them the cutest is to buy them the latest fashions. when I was growing up, I didn't just expect things. my parents were pretty frugal. people just aren't like that anymore. I remember for my birthday, my dad would take me to an orioles game. if I wanted a hat, or a glove, that was my christmas present. I think our spending habits have changed a lot in the last 30 or so years. it's not 100% responsible, but it plays a significant part in the shrinking of the middle class.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lamexican
Thank you for supporting small and local business,I do the same. I don't see how the relevancy to the decline of the middle class and he decline of union influence.
I can give you a reason for the decline of the middle class that most people don't think of. lots of americans have entitlement disease. what once was earned is now expected. we have an instant gratification mentality. how many people do you know that carpool? my father did for 20 years. I was the youngest of 3 boys and ALL my stuff was handed down. people don't do that now because of the keeping up with the jones's mentality. their kid has to be the cutest and the only way to make them the cutest is to buy them the latest fashions. when I was growing up, I didn't just expect things. my parents were pretty frugal. people just aren't like that anymore. I remember for my birthday, my dad would take me to an orioles game. if I wanted a hat, or a glove, that was my christmas present. I think our spending habits have changed a lot in the last 30 or so years. it's not 100% responsible, but it plays a significant part in the shrinking of the middle class.
Again, this is irrelevant to the correlation between unions and the middle class.
As to your points, the decline of the middle class is measured by earnings, not spending habits.
I can give you a reason for the decline of the middle class that most people don't think of. lots of americans have entitlement disease. what once was earned is now expected. we have an instant gratification mentality. how many people do you know that carpool? my father did for 20 years. I was the youngest of 3 boys and ALL my stuff was handed down. people don't do that now because of the keeping up with the jones's mentality. their kid has to be the cutest and the only way to make them the cutest is to buy them the latest fashions. when I was growing up, I didn't just expect things. my parents were pretty frugal. people just aren't like that anymore. I remember for my birthday, my dad would take me to an orioles game. if I wanted a hat, or a glove, that was my christmas present. I think our spending habits have changed a lot in the last 30 or so years. it's not 100% responsible, but it plays a significant part in the shrinking of the middle class.
This change in spending magically happened during the same time that unions lost their influence? See I disagree with you. I think that in the 1970s the wages stopped rising ( around the same time that unions lost influence) and Americans didn't change their lifestyles. Instead we sent another family member into the workforce (Women working fulltime) to supplement the income. So we had more people competing for fewer jobs which only compunded the wage problem. As the cost of living rose and the income provided by the extra worker was no longer enough we still refused to change our middle class lifestyles and began to borrow in order to maintain the same lifestyle. Now the bubble has burst and we have a choice to make as a country. The average American owed 132% of their annual income to debt as of 2005. So do we continue to demonize unions for demanding more for the worker. Do we demonize big business for screwing the worker out of wages for the last 30 plus years? IMO we realize that business is there to make money, but so is the worker. I fyou think that business has the right to attempt to maximize profit how can you argue against the workers right to do so as well? Unions aren't perfect as nothing is but they are very important to the future of the middle class and were very much responsible for the strength of the middle class that we previously had.
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