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Old 06-07-2009, 10:11 AM
 
12,439 posts, read 10,278,943 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lamontnow View Post
This one's a no-brainer. Yet another example of creating facts to fit an agenda. It's annoying. Cite your source. You won't. There isn't any.

Israel is, and always has been classified as a democracy. In fact it is the only free country in it's entire region:
http://www.freedomhouse.org/uploads/fiw09/MOF09_MENA.pdf (broken link)

This fact is really so non-debatable. I only bring it up as an example of how in general you say things off the top of your head because they fit into your ideological view. If you want to respond, please respond to this point about Israeli democracy. Don't go off on a tangent rant.
Here is your cite. Enjoy - but I think this thread is about Egypt not Israel.

Green Left - Cover Story: Why Israel is not a democracy
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Old 06-07-2009, 10:41 AM
 
11,127 posts, read 12,651,610 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomstudent View Post
There is a down side to this theory though. A lot of times while a dictator may control the people for a while they may end up hating the dictator, and if he receives a lot of support from America they may end up hating the American government as well. This could turn out a number of ways from places like Greece and Indonesia where people eventually, more or less forgave America's support for the dictator, and are willing to still ally or work with America, to places like Iran, and Cuba where people still resent America's support of the Shah and Batista respectively. Essentially while it may be short term beneficial to back a dictator it can often be long-term harmful, after all there are not many countries were America has supported a democratic government that also hate us.

I hope Obama does take an approach that requires balance and promotes democracy because I do think the democratic peace theory is correct and as such that is the best potential way to stabilize the entire world. The question is will he and others in the world work for this goal or not.

Edit: I would also like to note that I do not think most Arab countries would declare war with Israel if they were democracies and in fact many of the places that might currently have US backed regimes ie Saudi Arabia and Egypt. In other nations that are not US backed a such as Syria majorities of the population favor peace with Israel if certain conditions are met.

Poll: 51% of Syrians favor peace with Israel for Golan pullout - Haaretz - Israel News (http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasen/spages/888685.html - broken link)

In many places that are American backed dictatorships the mosque is often the only remaining area where dissent may be voiced. As such virulent Anti-Americanism grows there because of perceived American support of not only Israel, but often more importantly tyrannical Arab governments.
Excellent points, but as to the bolded portions:

First, It has generally been US foreign policy in the region to not give a squat if the populations hate us or not. As long as the dictator or family of a given country can control its population by any means, then the US could care less. In most oppressive countries that are backed by the US, it appears the mentality has been that if the government (dictator or family) were to lose power, the US still has the ability to either overthrow the current government and install someone that plays ball, or to outright invade and occupy by force, as we see in Iraq or Afghanistan.

Consider that when the US was backing Iraq publicly (and Iran secretly, see Iran contra affair) Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan, most of these nations have rather oppressive regimes and in many respect anti-democratic. Even after having 15 Saudi's and 2 Egyptians so enraged over the US backing of these governments that they flew planes into the World Trade Centers, we still back them and little more than a blip of mention is ever given to this.

To the extent that eruptions occur, the US then buys and bribes its way to calm. Even on a recent episode of Bill Maher when he was interviewing the President of the CFR it was mentioned the US essentially buying the peace between Israel and Egypt via foreign aid and in more recent times, the bribing of Sunni's in Iraq to stop fighting, both points of which were not disputed, only called, "giving incentives". We currently bribe the very Taliban in NE Afghanistan and NW Pakistan to allow UN supply convoys to travel unmolested. Its an expensive policy of madness and it has been our over all foreign policy for the past 50 years.

A true Democracy must meet two criteria: one philosophical that presents the logic of its argument in a declaration and/or constitution; the other practical that demonstrates how the Democracy implements legislation, distributes resources, and makes equitable all policies and procedures for all its citizens.

In the case of Israel, they have neither a ratified Constitution nor equitable policies and procedures for all citizens. From the Israeli basic law:

Quote:
‘a candidates’ list shall not participate in elections to the Knesset if its objectives or actions, expressly or by implication, include one of the following: (1) negation of the existence of the State of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state; (2) incitement to racism; (3) support of an armed struggle against Israel by supporting an enemy state or a terrorist organization.
This passage has recently been used to disqualify both of Israel’s small Arab political parties from running candidates in February’s election. As the Jerusalem Post explains it, by quoting Section 7A of Israel’s Basic Law

Quote:
This clause bars any political party calling for full equality between Israeli Jews and Israeli Palestinians in a state that prefers neither. Insisting that Israel become “a state of all its citizens” rather than “a state of the Jewish people” violates the demand that all parties accept Israel as a state in which Jewish concerns count most.
This alone prevents Israel from being an actual democracy.

In the case of Egypt, it is far more obvious as are the sentiments and intentions of the prior US administration.

Is the U.S. Ready for Egyptian Democracy?
Egyptian Democracy

Quote:
Egyptians anxiously anticipated election day, a strong and significant opposition movement against Mubarak went public. And who is the backbone of this opposition movement? The Islamists.
The US sentiments towards this:

Quote:
An Islamic-influenced Egypt is certainly not the kind of democracy the Bush administration has ever had in mind for the region's most important nation. I remember how one official talked about the administration's goals when she invited me to lunch just weeks before the start of the Iraq war to discuss the United States' plan to remake the Middle East.
And U.S. officials recently said they agreed with Egypt's long-held position that the Muslim Brotherhood should remain a banned organization.

There you have it, in our attempts to "remake" the Middle East, we are willing to quash actual democratic desires to maintain our own influence on Egypt, with the full support of Mubarak.

We also witnessed this with US reaction towards Hamas winning a democratic election. We labeled the organization wholesale as terrorist, thus delegitimizing their entire elections and instead continued dealing with the ineffectual and rather irrelevant Fatah. While Hamas certainly isn't the group we would have liked to see in power, I think this illustrates that it isn't actual Democracy that US desires, it is perception of Democracy that we approve of.

I am of the opinion that in order to have actual democratic styled governments in this region of the Middle East, that first and foremost, the populations of these nations can't have destroying the US, its citizens or Israel as its primary objective. Once some form of peace is reached, then you can start talking about such lofty notions. I see Obama attempting to calm the fears of the moderate Muslim world and open better relations, which I believe is the right first step, as one can't hold a gun to someones face and say, get along with your neighbor.
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Old 06-07-2009, 11:35 AM
 
117 posts, read 122,884 times
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Quote:
Egypt is the second largest benefactor of US foreign aid, and lets face it folks, it isn't exactly a human rights paradise either.
TNHill.....you have to understand why Egypt gets that foreign aid. It's yet another cost for the USA because of I$rael.

\Under Jimmy Carter, Israel signed its only successful peace agreement: with Egypt. As a part of that agreement, and a party to it, the USA is required to pay that money out to Israel and Egypt alike. Unless you want to unwind the agreement, the even-handed payments to 2 countries will have to stay.

In a nutshell, the aid to Egypt is basically a BRIBE for them to keep the peace with Israel. So, in reality you can lump that sum on top of the huge sum Israel already gets paid for free from out debt-strapped nation every year. It is because of Israel that we have to pay it!

As you can imagine, I am against foreign aid anywhere totally. This payment to Egypt/Israel is a prime example of the waste and the boondoggle.
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Old 06-07-2009, 12:42 PM
 
11,127 posts, read 12,651,610 times
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I believe I addressed this in my prior post. Such is the cost of an expansionist liberal interventionist foreign policy bent on maintaining empire.
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Old 06-07-2009, 12:50 PM
 
1,263 posts, read 2,107,736 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotair2 View Post
Here is your cite. Enjoy - but I think this thread is about Egypt not Israel.

Green Left - Cover Story: Why Israel is not a democracy
Freedom House versus a far out leftist site. You see only what you want to see.
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Old 06-07-2009, 12:54 PM
 
Location: Raleigh, NC
9,043 posts, read 11,567,259 times
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Two words as to why Obama nor other leaders has the cojones to influence Egypt:

Suez canal.
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Old 06-07-2009, 12:56 PM
 
Location: Raleigh, NC
9,043 posts, read 11,567,259 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lamontnow View Post
Freedom House versus a far out leftist site. You see only what you want to see.
It takes more than voting rights to make a democracy.

But those words fall silent on your socialist ears.
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Old 06-07-2009, 01:29 PM
 
12,439 posts, read 10,278,943 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lamontnow View Post
Freedom House versus a far out leftist site. You see only what you want to see.
There you go again. Ronald Reagan.

Attacking the source but not the argument. I understand. IF you can't attack the argument you have to attack the source.

This time I will address the source of the information. Yes I would trust my cite over your cite. Considering that Jane Harman's husband is on the board of trustees and Ms. Jane is known to fight for Isaeli Spies. I would call this guilt by association as to bias of your source.

Bombshell: Rep. Jane Harman Caught on Tape Agreeing to Lobby for Alleged AIPAC/Israel Spies? | Rights and Liberties | AlterNet (http://www.alternet.org/blogs/rights/137494/bombshell:_rep._jane_harman_caught_on_tape_agreein g_to_lobby_for_alleged_aipac_israel_spies/ - broken link)

Do you want to address the arguments presented by my cite that Israel is not a democracy...NO. I did not think so.

I see what is in front of my face, and I calls them as I sees them!
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Old 06-07-2009, 01:40 PM
 
1,263 posts, read 2,107,736 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ViewFromThePeak View Post
It takes more than voting rights to make a democracy.

But those words fall silent on your socialist ears.
You got me!

And you friend just called me Ronald Reagan!
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Old 06-07-2009, 02:20 PM
 
12,439 posts, read 10,278,943 times
Reputation: 3137
Quote:
Originally Posted by lamontnow View Post
You got me!

And you friend just called me Ronald Reagan!
That was a quote from Ronald Reagan.
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