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Old 06-07-2009, 09:31 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,883 posts, read 102,281,764 times
Reputation: 32946

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Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
Yes, I did say that womanhood and pregnancy does not suck but only in regard to a series of posts that had not one good or redeeming thing to say about being a woman, experiencing pregnancy or motherhood. Read back and perhaps you will see the flurry of posts that read like the merck manual on every possible complication of pregnancy from hemorrhoids to death as though they were equatable and common. Or that menstruation suddenly became a burden too great to bear, or that the glass ceiling has not improved in the last fifty years.

Yes, sometimes being a woman sucks. Sometimes being a man sucks too. Sometimes a woman is not happy to be pregnant, sometimes she is. Sometimes a pregnancy goes well, sometimes you get a hemorrhoid. I still say that all things being equal, being female does not suck and I do say that across the board. Sometimes yes - but then that is the risk one takes by being alive, isn't it?
And I agreed with camping! for the same reasons. To act like a healthy pregnancy "sucks" b/c you *might* get hemorrhoids or have morning sickness is the epitome of self-centered-ness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymax View Post
I'm curious about why many Pro-Life people are okay about abortions if the woman/girl is raped. What's the reasoning for making an exception in this case?
My guess would be that it's not a part of God's plan, or as someone else said, so the woman won't be punished for having a crime committed against her.
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Old 06-07-2009, 10:03 PM
 
Location: Blankity-blank!
11,449 posts, read 14,278,496 times
Reputation: 6904
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Power View Post
Maybe we pro-choicers should come up with a few cute words for the anti-choice crowd. I know, how about the anti-freedomers.

If we're using their standards and logic, it's not like it has to make any sense.
Good post.
Much of the abortion controversy is the use of names, such as unborn babies. That's absurd. We could also call all living people as undead people.
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Old 06-07-2009, 10:57 PM
 
Location: Earth
24,639 posts, read 24,759,886 times
Reputation: 11318
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
And I agreed with camping! for the same reasons. To act like a healthy pregnancy "sucks" b/c you *might* get hemorrhoids or have morning sickness is the epitome of self-centered-ness.
Excellent judgment.
It's none of your business what anyone chooses to do with their reproductive system, zygote or fetus or the reasons for it. Absolutely none.

You don't have to carry or raise it.

The epitome of self-centeredness is putting your nose in someone else's business and assuming you know better than they do.

Self-centeredness is when you have kids you can't or won't care for, either economically or emotionally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
My guess would be that it's not a part of God's plan, or as someone else said, so the woman won't be punished for having a crime committed against her.
Then again, there is no proof of a god.
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Old 06-07-2009, 10:59 PM
 
Location: IN
20,786 posts, read 35,823,153 times
Reputation: 13210
True conservatives don't want GOVERNMENT interferring with their personal lives. I don't believe in legislating morality and am an advocate for the separation of chruch and state.

Like I said before these so called "Bible Belt" red states have the HIGHEST teen pregnancy rates compared to much lower rates for most of the northern states.
With that being said, I DO NOT like abortion in general- especially late term. However, the decision rests with the individual. Like other posters have said, extraneous medical situations or other complexities may arise. It is not what I would call a black and white issue for some people. (It MAY BE a black and white issue for others, but that does not give them the right to force others to conform to their own personal views). The decision should ultimately be a personal one for the individual.
Another big item is education. The more educated the populace the more informed they are about birth control options. Abstinence only sex ed has been promoted by the religious right, but the statistics prove that teen pregnancies have increased over the past few years.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is my well thought out Independent viewpoint on the matter. I am not a liberal nor conservative. I am not pro-life nor pro-choice. I am a centrist on most issues.

However, centrist viewpoints are not respected in states like Kansas (where I used to live, unfortunately). I posted this same response on a Kansas thread and got threatening direct messages and was personally attacked for writing my viewpoint on the matter. I learned that you can't reason with hypocritical people (who are often Christian) who will not participate in an honest debate with you.


Part II

I have a queston for staunch pro-lifers. Are you as a taxpayer going to want to foot the bill for increases in social service programs, early childhood development programs, mental health programs, property tax increases for huge increases in school enrollment, etc. if we completely ban abortion entirely? The examples I just mentioned are the externalized costs that are not factored in for the general population.

Part III
My view on contraception is that it is definitely not abortion. I think most people do not want out of control population growth and the pill, condoms, and education help out in that regard.
I think that the Catholic Church continues to take rather extreme positions on these issues as of late, and I think some are getting rather fed up. They also take a very favorable stance toward illegal immigrants as well.
In conclusion, I do not hold the belief that all abortions should be banned. However, I do not feel that one should have the hubris to force feed personal beliefs onto others that share differing personal, cultural, and religious values. I think that we need to continue to invest in comprehensive sex education so that knowledge regarding contraception methods becomes even more widespread which will lead to abortions becoming more rare over time.
This is my overall take on the issue.
PS: Don't ever try to have a well reasoned debate with most people from KS on this issue. They will send you hate filled messages and personal threats if they think that you even slightly side with the pro-choice crowd. To them it is an ideologically rigid black and white issue that they like to personally force on others.
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Old 06-07-2009, 11:06 PM
 
Location: James Island, SC
1,628 posts, read 3,154,898 times
Reputation: 927
Quote:
Originally Posted by LML View Post
I wonder how many people....no matter what their circumstances of birth ....truly would wish they had never been born. Don't count teen agers in puberty who are mad because mom won't let them take the car tonight. Just seriously ask 100 people if they wish they had never felt the sun on their face, never listened to music, never eaten an ice cream cone, never laughed, never cried, never had the opportunity to make their own choice.

Me.
I do.
Female, 27, parents who were emotionally abusive alcoholics. 2 younger brothers who at separate times wanted to kill themselves.

When I visit, out of obligation, I am depressed and anxious for a week afterward, isolating myself and barely able to eat.

I am here now, and try to make the best of it, but our parents should not have had children.
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Old 06-08-2009, 05:12 AM
 
25,780 posts, read 38,999,165 times
Reputation: 13782
Quote:
Originally Posted by LML View Post
I'm just going to post one more message on this topic and then I'm going to quit beating this dead horse.

1. Sorry young women but YOU do NOT determine who is or who isn't a feminist. A lot of us old women earned that title in ways that you younger women will never know or understand. I could write 10 pages on the humiliation, insults, threats, loss of income, etc. etc. we experienced. Whether you like it or not, feminism is NOT all about the right to kill your babies.

2. With several of you what comes across loud and clear is that you resent BEING a woman. Instead of celebrating and being proud of being a strong woman you have chosen the cloak of victimhood and resentment. THAT is not being a feminist. That is being a victim.

3. With a few of you what comes across loud and clear is that you are not just against the pre born, you are against children completely. That also is not being a feminist. That is just using it as a way to cover your own issues. For heaven sake DON'T have children if you feel this way. But don't let your hatred of them be an excuse for killing them for the sake of your issues.

4. And finally, one thing that most grown ups learn and many of you have not....it is NOT ALL ABOUT YOU!!!! Even if you can't imagine it to be true, the life of others have value too and the fact that YOU might feel sad or YOU might have temporary discomfort or YOU might have to deal with some issues is NOT a good reason to kill another person.
The whole feminist thing is so crazy...a group of so called woman yelling and screaming that they can do eveything better than man ....I always hated it...

Man are needed and woman can't do all without man and the other way around!

I'm in favor of birth control and in certain cases I'm in favor of abortus (like in ape cases, etc), but please stop with the feminist thing...mostly a bunch of woman who look like man stating they can do it all until they need a man!
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Old 06-08-2009, 05:19 AM
 
1,986 posts, read 3,549,118 times
Reputation: 1297
Quote:
Originally Posted by Who?Me?! View Post
You quoted me:
"""Originally Posted by Who?Me?!
You're happy women could die from BC pills..???????""""
WHY?
What has my question to another poster have to do with your answer??????????????????????????
Which was, ""Women die from numerous things, the pill doesn't kill any more than other meds or other means""
Are YOU on something?????
Because we shouldn't be happy about anybody dying from any kind of thing. Fact is, more die in a lot of other ways besides birth control. Birth itself is dangerous. Getting in your car and being on the road is dangerous. Drinking and driving is dangerous. Going to work is dangerous for a lot of people. There are tons of things more dangerous than taking the pill. With the amount of women who have used the pill over the decades, the death rate is miniscule.
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Old 06-08-2009, 05:20 AM
 
25,780 posts, read 38,999,165 times
Reputation: 13782
A friend of mine who is a devoted Catholic and in church every week, praying on a daily base before every mal before going to bed and giving their kids the Catholic values....after 4 kids they decided it was enough and he decided to have the surgery because she already had 4 pregnancies.

His parents was so mad and basically because of religious reasons, but they didn't want to go on and on and have more kids.

My husband has 24 uncle and aunts and that doesn't incl. the person who got married to them...just because he was from a Catholic family and even his grand mother who got 16 kids stated a couple of years before she died, that it was insane and if she could do it over she would have gotten the birth control pill. The youngest had Down Syndrom and lived to be 57 and never could speak and lived in a special need home. Luckily for them they lived in a socialized country (this is the one time I think a socialized country is better), so the governement paid for him as long as he lived and he had a great live....nice field trips, beautiful housing with swimmin pool on many acres in a place that would be visited by many newly married couples to take their pictures since the place was so beautiful.

If Catholic people are even stating that 16 kids is inhumane for a person to get and she got them herself and only started to get them after the priest came to her house stating it was time to get some kids....

How can life be killed if the egg and the sperm never got together?
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Old 06-08-2009, 05:48 AM
 
Location: Reading, PA
4,059 posts, read 3,875,672 times
Reputation: 839
Quote:
Originally Posted by bentlebee View Post
The whole feminist thing is so crazy...a group of so called woman yelling and screaming that they can do eveything better than man ....I always hated it...

Man are needed and woman can't do all without man and the other way around!

I'm in favor of birth control and in certain cases I'm in favor of abortus (like in ape cases, etc), but please stop with the feminist thing...mostly a bunch of woman who look like man stating they can do it all until they need a man!
You obviously have no knowledge of and therefore no understanding of the feminist movement. That's probably because you are young enough that you have -- without a bit of effort on your part -- reaped the rewards of what those "so called women" did before you were born.
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Old 06-08-2009, 05:50 AM
 
17,853 posts, read 12,183,555 times
Reputation: 4113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceece View Post
Sometimes there is a very simple reason ...punishment.

But I have also convinced several prolifers that they are actually prochoice using this example. Most people who aren't on the 'front lines' of the abortion debate don't really think through their reasons until you confront them with it. And while there is a few people who don't want any abortions, even for rape or incest or health reasons, most people aren't comfortable going there and will admit they wouldn't want to force someone to give birth under those circumstances.
For Pro-Lifers -Why make an exception for women who were raped if it you say that saving the life of a fetus is more important than a woman's right to have control over her own body and life?

Is it because the woman didn't have a choice about being impregnated when she was raped?

Is it because the psychological and emotional damage for the woman to carry the child of her rapist might be too much?

Is it because it wouldn't be "fair" to force a woman to carry the child of her rapist?

Would you feel just a little bit guilty and uncomfortable forcing a woman to carry and give birth to the child of her rapist?

What's the difference between forcing a woman who has been raped to carry an unwanted pregnancy and give birth to an unwanted child against her will, and forcing a woman whose Birth Control accidently failed?

In fact how is forcing a woman to use her body against her will to carry a pregnancy to term and give birth, much different from forcing a woman to have sex against her will? (aka rape). Both are about control.

Ceece, I agree there is a hidden undertone of "punishment" of women for having sex, which is revealed when a pro-lifer says they would make an exception in the case of rape.

Last edited by Ceist; 06-08-2009 at 06:18 AM..
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