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Old 06-17-2009, 12:11 PM
 
3,043 posts, read 6,856,284 times
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It comes down to this question:

Do American citizens have a right to health care?
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Old 06-17-2009, 12:13 PM
 
3,043 posts, read 6,856,284 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
Ahem... who is paying into the kitty that the 'public servants' take their salary and benefits from?

Look in the mirror.

Democracy (Socialist) ends, when the voters start voting themselves benefits paid for by "other people" - - - which invariably turns out to be themselves.

Put it this way - there is a finite supply of hours that physicians, nurses and technicians can work. There is a finite supply of hospital beds. There is a finite supply of medication, and resources.

Right now, "money" is used as the means to ration it all.
If you're rich, or can tap into a pool of money, you can enjoy a lot of medical care.
If you're not, and cannot tap into a pool of money, you won't enjoy a lot of medical care.
But if suddenly EVERYONE is told they can access all the medical care they want / need, guess what will happen?
Rationing, delays, triage, suffering and more... all the while, the administrative overhead increases, draining more resources to deal with it.

The only way to overcome those limitations is to INCREASE the number of trained medical care givers, the number of hospital beds (or cheaper alternatives), and reduce the overhead expense associated with bureaucracy. Nothing in "Socialized" health insurance will deal with those issues.
You make it sound like health care is ice cream. Gotta have me some more of that rocky road. I hate going to the doctor. Why would anyone want more tests than necessary? Why would a doctor order them?

And, there is no finite supply of teachers and classrooms. Why would there be a finite supply of doctors and hospitals? If our system is so great, why are we ranked 37th behind countries with socialized medicine? Why does our nation pay a higher percentage of its GDP for health care than these socialized countries? The reason is because health care is run by for profit industries.
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Old 06-17-2009, 12:31 PM
 
Location: Prepperland
13,745 posts, read 9,857,114 times
Reputation: 9868
Quote:
Originally Posted by LML View Post
#1. I worked for 50 years and paid into the system every day in which it was operational....paid my income tax, paid my ss tax, paid my medicare tax after medicare came into being, paid my property tax, paid my sales tax, paid tax on my savings, and paid all of my "user fees." After 50 years of paying "my share" I don't feel the least bit of regret for getting what I was promised.

#2. A large, large reason for the financial problems of ss and medicare right now is that administration after administration has taken the money "invested" by those of us paying into the system and using it for other purposes. It is the same as if you are paying your mortgage every month and yet when your 30 years of paying your mortgage ends and you ask for clear title to your property they tell you that they haven't applied your payments to your mortgage but instead have used it to build a new office building.
You were misled, if you believe you "paid into a trust fund".
There is nothing in the Federal Insurance Contribution Act to that effect.

Feel free to write to the Congressional Research Service, or your Congresscritter, and ask:

What property right do I have in entitlements?

Their answer: You have no property rights in any entitlement. Entitlements are synonymous with gifts. Entitlements are at the sole discretion of Congress.

In short, you paid EXTRA socialist taxes for 50 years, that were used by the socialist / pirate Congress to fend off the usurers.

You have NO RIGHT to benefits. All benefits of socialism are privileges granted (or withheld ) by Congress.
And you VOLUNTEERED, by application for an account and number.

There is no law compelling all Americans to participate. There is no law punishing Americans who do not participate. It is 100% voluntary.

Involuntary servitude may be unconstitutional, but that doesn't stop voluntary servitude (socialist slavery).
He who consents cannot complain....
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Old 06-17-2009, 12:49 PM
 
Location: Prepperland
13,745 posts, read 9,857,114 times
Reputation: 9868
Quote:
Originally Posted by fauve View Post
You make it sound like health care is ice cream. Gotta have me some more of that rocky road. I hate going to the doctor. Why would anyone want more tests than necessary? Why would a doctor order them?

And, there is no finite supply of teachers and classrooms. Why would there be a finite supply of doctors and hospitals? If our system is so great, why are we ranked 37th behind countries with socialized medicine? Why does our nation pay a higher percentage of its GDP for health care than these socialized countries? The reason is because health care is run by for profit industries.
Providing health care, in the USA, is monopolized and restricted to licensed individuals.
In many other nations (allegedly less blessed with liberty), an adult can purchase medicine without buying permission from a physician (prescription).

If you believe that the supply of licensed medical care givers is not finite, I submit that you may need to see one of them for an examination, ASAP.
Your grasp of reality is a bit dodgy.

On the other hand, you may suffer from bureaucratic illiteracy, from years of indoctrination.

The growing numbers of "uninsured" lacking access to medical care was not evident in pre-Socialist America (before 1935).

If one will recall, there were charity hospitals and clinics, as well as private sector physicians, nurses, etc.

You might investigate into why most folks could AFFORD to pay their medical bills, without the need for an insurance program, let alone prepayment.

You might inquire into the transformation of the physician / nurse office into the bloated administrative records keeping "medical practice".

You might look into the rising burdens of socialist taxation laid upon the productive for the benefit of the parasites in government bureaucracy, as well as the beneficiaries who were paid "entitlements".

You might examine the insane malpractice insurance premiums, driven by a tort system that is out of control.

You might read the law regarding the nature of the license to practice medicine (and commit manslaughter without criminal liability).

Personally, I prefer UNIVERSAL health care - where anyone can give care to another, without fear of prosecution. And where any responsible adult can purchase any medical treatment or material without prior permission.
And that education and training for medical care is open to all, and not restricted to a finite number of openings in AMA blessed colleges.
And that demonstrating one's ability via examination, open to all, is sufficient to bestow credentials for that ability.

In short, I prefer free choice over no choice; charity over compulsion.
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Old 06-17-2009, 01:31 PM
 
Location: On the Ohio River in Western, KY
3,388 posts, read 5,748,762 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donna7 View Post
I don't know what your problem is, but private insurance companies are pencil pushers who make decisions about OUR/YOUR health.

And goodie for you that you have a relative who is a doctor/dentist and charges minimal fees. So, now we're all supposed to rely on the "kindness of strangers" in order to get medical/dental care? And we're supposed to rely on doctors/dentists/lawyers to do pro-bono work in order to get professional services rendered? I am not going to go that route, that's for sure.

Finally, you've been "lucky" not to get seriously sick so you haven't "crossed that bridge" yet. What happens when you do? What about all those people who have lived long enough to have crossed that bridge? Undoubtedly, we will all cross that bridge some day as we live and age.

Your post is full of holes and doesn't hold up at all as far as being a "standard" that is applicable for all or even most people.
I didn't intend for my post to hold up to the standard thanks.

I knew where the person was going when they asked me the question that I answered with that reply.
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Old 06-17-2009, 01:57 PM
 
27,903 posts, read 34,468,932 times
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But you can always change insurance companies... Unless the monopoly known as the government runs it... Then you just accept what they tell you. When the government says lie down you lay there and don't ask questions.
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Old 06-17-2009, 02:23 PM
 
6,226 posts, read 6,849,644 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJon3475 View Post
But you can always change insurance companies... Unless the monopoly known as the government runs it... Then you just accept what they tell you. When the government says lie down you lay there and don't ask questions.
You can not always change insurance companies. Please explain how if your employer is providing this benefit. Just to make it a tad more complicated, if one was to seek individual health insurance coverage outside of their employment, but happens to have a pre-existing condition, how then would this person change insurance companies?
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Old 06-17-2009, 02:27 PM
 
Location: PA
5,560 posts, read 4,979,570 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by momonkey View Post
Social Security is broke. Medicare is broke. Medicaid is broke. The Federal government is broke. Why would a Loonversal Health Care System not be broke like the rest of our entitlement programs? Do you really trust them to not raid any trust fund set up to take care of our medical needs? If they can't be trusted with a little, why should we give them more? 1 in 6 Americans do not have health insurance. A lot of these people are young and healthy opting out of employer health care programs. The poor receive Medicaid already, so what's the reason for scrapping the best system in the world? Power, that's why. The democrats want to control every aspect of our existence. They want a system that makes decent hard-working Americans beholding to politicians. They want to rob us and our children then act like they are doing us a favor by returning part of it. Outside of the military, can you name one government entity that functions competently and efficiently? You want to trust this same government with your life?

Hmm I didnt see any response to that ... that made to much sense I guess.
I would even question they do the military right :-) Or maybe it would be best to kept more troops home and save us the 700 bases we have for no reason other then to get us into trouble.
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Old 06-17-2009, 02:34 PM
 
3,568 posts, read 3,280,796 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by albion View Post
I' m a big fan of the NHS after all it's saved my life twice.
I prefer a doctor to determine my medical treatmeat, not an Insurance company thats only interested in the bottom line.

I'm sick of seeing the same lies & propaganda: eg, the goverment tell you what doctor you will see, ( LIE ) UHC hospitals won't treat senior citizens ( LIE ) people have to wait for weeks for an appointment with their MD ( another LIE ).

You have to ask yourself a question, why does every first world country ( with the exception of the US ) have UHC or a form of if? answer, because EVERYBODY should be entitled to healthcare rich or poor.

Unfortunately In America this is obviously not the case, profit comes before the patient, and if, as we've read in some of these posts you have a pre-existing condition, then you won't be able to buy Insurance anyway.

What happens then, do you sell your business. spend the college fund, re-mortgage the house? If it's a long term IIlness it could mean that you & your family face ruin.

Nobody should have to put theirself & their family through that, but as you know it happens in the states everyday.

I consider myself fortunate to have benefited from the NHS system & I hope that in the not too distant future the US will have a UHC too.

And by the way, in the UK people over sixty get their perscriptions free of charge.
This country provides the best health care in the world to its citizens. Does that mean our system is perfect? No. But in reforming it don't throw the baby out with the bath water--which is what is currently being proposed. Eighty-five per cent of people in this country are covered by some sort of private or government (Medicare or Medicaid) insurance program. The system, while too expensive, is working fine for them. So let's devise a fix for the 15% that currently have no coverage. That's roughly 46 to 50 million people. Of those 4 in 10 are without insurance because they are between jobs. On average statistics show that those people lose coverage for about 3 months. Solution? Bridge policies subsidized by the government to cover them until they find another job and get re-insured.

Another large number of the uninsured are people who can afford the insurance but choose not to pay for it. Young people who think they are invincible form a large part of that group. Liberty means being free to make stupid decisions. But we shouldn't have to pay for that. About 10 million or more of the uninsured are illegals. We shouldn't be paying for them, either. Finally there is a sizeable number of people who would qualify for Medicaid but simply have not applied for it, for one reason or another.

The bottom line is that the health care problem is more manageable than what the politicians would have us believe and at far lower cost than is currently being projected for the plan the Dems are floating in Congress.

In reality the real problem of health care is the cost to those who do have insurance. My uncle, a factory laborer, and his wife were able to retire early and pay for their own health insurance until they qualified for Medicare. That was in the late 70's. Try doing that today. What's changed? For one thing medicine itself has changed. In that time there has been a revolution in this country in health care: more and improved drugs, new-fangled diagnostic tools, and very complex surgical procedures. There's no two ways about it--our basic health care has become very expensive because it is so good.

But there are avoidable costs, too. More doctors and hospitals are being sued for malpractice. We end up paying for those large jury awards in increased insurance costs. Also, to avoid being sued, doctors are practicing defensive medicine. Just to be safe they prescribe expensive tests they ordinarily would not but for fear of lawsuits. That drives up the cost of health insurance premiums. Then there is government regulation. Here in Maine, for instance, the legislature just voted down a bill that would have allowed us to buy health insurance from out-of-state providers. Why? Because they want to be able to dictate to insurers the terms of their policies. The only insurers authorized to sell insurance in this state are those who sell cadillac-style policies: policies that pay for everything from hangnails to abortions. That means that a young person who's in good health can't go out and buy a bare-bones policy if that's all he feels he needs. His only option is the Cadillac. So he stays uninsured. But the rest of us pay through the nose.

This is long, I know, but the point I want to make is that health insurance and health care are complex issues. They deserve careful and deliberate consideration. But that's not what's going on. The government and a compliant media are feeding us bumper-sticker slogans and are rushing this to passage so that people will not have time to weigh the consequences of the proposals that are currently bandied about. Advocates of single-payor insurance (an euphemism for nationalized health care) extoll the virtues of the system in the UK or Canada. What they don't tell you is the cost. People in those countries pay 60% and more of their wages in taxes to fund their social welfare programs. I suppose if you don't work and don't pay taxes then taxes don't mean much to you. But remember, we fought a revolution over high taxes precisely because the colonists understood that taxation, when unreasonable, is simply slavery by another name. When someone can commandeer the fruit of your labor, you are that person's slave. That's where we are headed.
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Old 06-17-2009, 02:45 PM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,107 posts, read 35,221,138 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by albion View Post
And by the way, in the UK people over sixty get their perscriptions free of charge.
In other words, the taxpayers of your country are saddled with the bill.

Gotcha
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