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View Poll Results: Read below question:
Yes, I would care for someone elses mistake 8 15.09%
no, its not my responsibility...but still vote against abortion 9 16.98%
no, Leave the laws as they are 36 67.92%
Voters: 53. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-23-2009, 04:30 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
A rather large step in the right direction would be to stop calling illegitimate children 'mistakes' and spreading misinformation about the adoption process.

Beyond that another thread dedicated to revamping the adoption process would be more appropriate.
I am starting to think that those calling them mistakes are the mistakes and we should abort them.
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Old 06-23-2009, 04:35 PM
 
29,939 posts, read 39,458,172 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fracturedman View Post
If they were to cast a vote today about making abortion illegal...

If you vote yes, you are required to take care of the unwanted children. The government will assign a child to a person that voted yes, you now must care for that child without help from the federal or local governments. They may even give you more than one as time goes by.

If you vote no, well you dont have to do anything...

how would you vote?

would you take on such a responsibility?
Congrats! That's the biggest leap away from responsibility and reality I have ever seen, read or heard about.
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Old 06-23-2009, 05:03 PM
 
13,053 posts, read 12,948,893 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomstudent View Post
If I may ask what other option should there be? I think it covers most all the bases essentially this can be simplified to.

No Abortion--->Yes opinion tied to mandatory support of children.
No Abortion---> No opinion not tied to mandatory support of children.
Yes Abortion ---> No support needed for obvious reasons.

What other options would there be?
Each is meant to gain support for an attack depending on the answer or herd a person into a position that supports their goal.

If the first, then we dump all the babies on you and you pay for it.

If the second, then you are just complaining and don't care about the children. This is to support the attack of people who point out the act of killing.

The third, you support it as is, you support abortion.

Each is tailored to fit a support for the givers position.

The other valid options are numerous which may offer support for the other side. The OP knows this, which is why the poll specifically targets this form of questioning.

In the end, the OP is stating all other opinions on solutions are invalid and the only solution is to do what they want or do what they want.
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Old 06-23-2009, 05:20 PM
 
31 posts, read 152,048 times
Reputation: 28
PROF DUNCAN OF ITHACA COLLEGE has to say

Some Thoughts on the Adoption Option

In discussions of abortion, the subject of adoption as an alternative to abortion comes up frequently. This is indeed a possible alternative. But is it realistic to propose that all unwanted babies can be put up for adoption? The following thoughts can help you decide.

First, you must consider the number of abortions. More than a million abortions are performed yearly in the U.S. For example, in 1997—the last year in which data from all 50 states was collected by the CDC—1.186 million abortions were performed. (Starting in 1998, the CDC began collecting data from only 46 states, for reasons unknown to me; click here for the CDC website). This means that approximately 3250 abortions per day were performed in 1997. In 1999, the CDC estimated that 20% of all pregnancies were ended through abortion.

One question to ask is whether there would be enough adoptive families available to care for unwanted children if adoption were to replace abortion as the option of choice. Data on adoptions is pretty sketchy, but the National Adoption Information Clearinghouse (associated with the U.S. Dept. of Health and Human Services) reports that in the 1990s there was an average of 120,000 adoptions a year (click here for their website)—barely over 10% of the number of abortions per year. Of these adoptions, moreover, over 40% are “kinship adoptions” involving stepparents and other relatives, e.g. grandparents, aunts, uncles, etc. (In 1992, for instance, the figure for kinship adoptions was 42%; I don’t know of any reason to suppose other years were different.) This means that in the 1990s there were just 72,000 adoptions per year of non-kin babies.

Perhaps, though, these numbers are low because there are more people seeking adoption than there are babies to adopt. Haven’t we all heard about long lines of people waiting to adopt a child, and even going overseas to find them? If so, then might there be enough adoptive parents to handle the increase in unwanted children if abortion weren’t used? To answer this we would need to know how many adoption seekers there are. As reported by the National Adoption Information Clearinghouse, the 1995 National Survey of Family Growth found that 500,000 women were currently seeking to adopt a child, though of these only 232,000 were taking concrete steps toward adoption, and only 100,000 had actually applied to adopt a child. I don’t know how long these women had been trying to adopt. That is to say, if all 500,000 of these women were to succeed in adopting a child this year, I don’t know whether there would be 500,000 new women wanting to adopt the following year. Perhaps the most helpful statistic is from the 1988 National Survey of Family Growth, which estimated that there are 3.3 adoption seekers for every actual adoption. Combining this with the 120,000 adoptions a year statistic from above makes for just under 400,000 adoption seekers a year.

So suppose abortion were to be made illegal (except, say, in cases of rape and danger to mother’s health—a very small fraction of yearly abortions). Would the “supply” of unwanted babies outstrip the “demand” of adoptive parents? (I hate to use those terms, but they’re the easiest way to get a handle on the issue.) I don’t know the answer. The lack of the abortion option might inspire some people to be more careful with contraceptives, or have less sex in the first place. Plus it is likely that many women who would otherwise have aborted would end up choosing to keep their babies. These effects mean that one cannot simply say “1.2 million abortions a year, therefore 1.2 million babies put up for adoption a year if abortion is made illegal.” (There is also the fact that some women would procure illegal abortions or travel to other countries to get them. This would be only cold-comfort to abortion opponents, however, and thus they will not want to place great emphasis on these factors.)

Still, even taking account of these effects, the supply of unwanted babies would surely increase dramatically if abortion were made illegal. Just to make things concrete, suppose that increased abstinence and increased care with contraceptives led to 20% fewer unwanted pregnancies a year, and that of the unwanted pregnancies that still arise, fully 1/3 of the pregnant women decide to keep their babies. Starting from the current baseline of 1.2 million abortions a year, these changes would still mean an increase of 640,000 babies put up for adoption per year, in addition to the 120,000 that are already put up per year. Would there be enough demand to handle 760,000 unwanted babies a year—over 6 times more than there are now? If we rely on the (somewhat optimistic, I think) figure from above positing 400,000 adoption seekers a year, that still leaves 360,000 babies—almost half—left over per year.

Problems remain even on the more optimistic assumptions that, say, increased abstinence and increased care with contraceptives leads to 50% fewer unwanted pregnancies a year, and that of the unwanted pregnancies that arise, fully 1/2 of the pregnant women decide to keep their babies. This would still create an increase of 300,000 babies in addition to the 120,000 that are already put up for adoption each year. Again assuming 400,000 adoption seekers per year, this would leave 20,000 babies per year unwanted and unadopted.

This might not be the end of the story, however. For I suppose we can imagine that many people who wouldn’t otherwise consider adoption would begin to consider it once they, say, saw TV footage of orphanages filling up. The key question is whether this increase in demand for adoptive babies would match the supply. Again, I do not know; it might or might not. More likely, I think, is that we would never get to the orphanage stage. If there weren’t willing adoptive parents, my guess is most women would choose to keep their baby rather than give it to an orphanage. That is the good news, I suppose—namely, that replacing abortion with adoption probably (though not certainly) could be done without orphanages. But in a way it is not-so-good-news for abortion opponents. For recall that the whole point of mentioning the adoption option is usually to suggest that even absent an abortion option, no one needs to raise an unwanted child; one need instead only to give it to adoptive parents and be (more or less) confident it will be loved. This would not be true, however, if in a post-abortion world there are not enough adoptive parents to go around. Choosing between keeping the baby or sending it to an orphanage would be in the eyes of most mothers no choice at all. For many people, then—namely, those whose babies the adoption “market” judges to be less desirable than others—the “adoption option” would be no real option. In short, even if orphanages would not abound absent abortion, our evaluation of the “adoption option” should still be influenced by whether there are likely to be enough adoptive parents to match the number of mothers who would prefer that someone else raise their babies. I’ll let you be the judge of how likely this is.

On a different note, I should point out that even if it is unlikely that there would be enough adoptive parents, this does not by itself settle the matter of the moral permissibility of abortion. Abortion opponents after all can still argue that even if many mothers feel forced to keep their child due to a shortage of adoptive parents, it is still likely that many, many babies who begin life unloved will eventually come to be loved by their mothers (and fathers). True, there will be some mothers and fathers whose hearts will never come around, who will always resent the sacrifices they had to make for their children. But abortion opponents can still argue that even if a pregnant woman and her sexual partner could somehow know they would never come to love their child, this still does not justify ending its life in the womb.

Moreover, on the other, pro-choice side there are arguments I have not explored. Pro-choice supporters might for instance say that even if there were enough adoptive parents to absorb the increase in unwanted babies brought about by an absence of abortion, there still is reason to keep abortion legal. This is so because even if a woman is certain she cannot raise her baby and thus is certain she ought to give it up for adoption, it still must be very traumatic for her to carry her baby to term and go through with the process of giving it up. Hence pro-choice supporters might insist that we should force pregnant women into this traumatic situation only if there is very good reason to do so—say, only if abortion is grossly immoral. But they will insist (for reasons we will study) that abortion isn’t grossly immoral, and so there is no need to force pregnant women to go through such trauma.

Hence there is much more to be said on either side. By way of closing, let me say the following. The point of this discussion is not to argue for or against one side of the abortion issue. Rather, it is just to argue that credible appeals to the “adoption option” as a solution to every unwanted pregnancy cannot be one-sentence long. There are tough questions that turn on various empirical predictions about unclear matters, and whatever answers are given to these questions must be defended. This is not to say no such defense is possible, only that one is necessary.


-- Prof. Duncan

PLACEMENT OF BABIES
The state raising unwanted babies and spending money on them-The extreme right wing is Ok to that?
They probably want the woman no matter what to raise the child, and let the church have orphanages like in the past!
so wasteful government involvement! (according to them). How many people would agree to the placement of babies in thier house. ?
One side there is the christian view of the preciousness of life, and on the other side of the christian view is that even if an unwanted child suffers, its all part of life.
Atleast in united states the child has opportunities to try to make a life for himself/herself.What about other countries where the plight of the unwanted children is to be child slaves, and child prostitutes. What about a girl child who has no escape from her plight?, and has to become a prostitute all her life?Christians still think that the previledge of life outweighs all her suffering?
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Old 06-23-2009, 05:32 PM
 
13,053 posts, read 12,948,893 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aluva View Post

Hence there is much more to be said on either side. By way of closing, let me say the following. The point of this discussion is not to argue for or against one side of the abortion issue. Rather, it is just to argue that credible appeals to the “adoption option” as a solution to every unwanted pregnancy cannot be one-sentence long. There are tough questions that turn on various empirical predictions about unclear matters, and whatever answers are given to these questions must be defended. This is not to say no such defense is possible, only that one is necessary.


-- Prof. Duncan
My problem is that he operates only from the position of cleaning up after the mess, not dealing with the cause of it.

If we ignore the cause, then it makes the position of abortion look appealing because options on correcting the issue are assumed impossible. I find his argument much like that in climate science where the calls to validity are ignored and rushed by in order to jump to the position of dealing with a solution.

The solution must be from many angles, though it is very complex in the causation. There are many factors that lead to unwanted pregnancies, yet much that we see today are related to corrosion of moral fiber in people often centered around responsibility which flows through all involved parties (the parents, children, society, etc...). Only when we combine all factors can we truly begin working on a solution.
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Old 06-23-2009, 06:21 PM
 
Location: The Chatterdome in La La Land, CaliFUNia
39,031 posts, read 23,016,954 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomander View Post
My problem is that he operates only from the position of cleaning up after the mess, not dealing with the cause of it.

If we ignore the cause, then it makes the position of abortion look appealing because options on correcting the issue are assumed impossible. I find his argument much like that in climate science where the calls to validity are ignored and rushed by in order to jump to the position of dealing with a solution.

The solution must be from many angles, though it is very complex in the causation. There are many factors that lead to unwanted pregnancies, yet much that we see today are related to corrosion of moral fiber in people often centered around responsibility which flows through all involved parties (the parents, children, society, etc...). Only when we combine all factors can we truly begin working on a solution.
Amen!
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Old 06-23-2009, 06:23 PM
 
Location: um....guess
10,503 posts, read 15,563,744 times
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Today while driving by the local abortion clinic, there was one lone protestor w/a sign that if I remember correctly said "Let Us Help You". Blast it that I didn't pull over & question the man. Dammit! Next time.
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Old 06-23-2009, 07:00 PM
 
1,780 posts, read 2,352,440 times
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What I dont understand is why people refuse to see an argument from all sides...My OP is merely to show that most pro-lifers would make no sacrifice to make abortion illegal...they only care about the child up until birth...after that they could care less.
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Old 06-23-2009, 07:16 PM
 
Location: The Chatterdome in La La Land, CaliFUNia
39,031 posts, read 23,016,954 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fracturedman View Post
What I dont understand is why people refuse to see an argument from all sides...My OP is merely to show that most pro-lifers would make no sacrifice to make abortion illegal...they only care about the child up until birth...after that they could care less.
As I stated prior, I would adopt if I were in a position to do so. Valuing the life of the unborn does not equate to me taking on full responsibility for that child's life. That responsibility rests with the parents who created that child. My question for you is why do the irresponsible get a free pass? If they don't want to be bothered with a child, just kill it in the womb! That's it! The parents are somehow absolved from their responsiblity. If those of us who are pro-life dare to express outrage or try to influence legislation to outlaw this barbaric practice, we all of sudden are now responsible for the children that were produced by two irresponsible adults? I don't think so. Pro-choicers like to rail against our foster care system but nary a word of outrage is expressed against those folks who are failing to take responsibility for the children they so carelessly produce!
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Old 06-23-2009, 10:38 PM
 
Location: NC
9,984 posts, read 10,390,751 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomander View Post
Each is meant to gain support for an attack depending on the answer or herd a person into a position that supports their goal.

If the first, then we dump all the babies on you and you pay for it.

If the second, then you are just complaining and don't care about the children. This is to support the attack of people who point out the act of killing.

The third, you support it as is, you support abortion.

Each is tailored to fit a support for the givers position.

The other valid options are numerous which may offer support for the other side. The OP knows this, which is why the poll specifically targets this form of questioning.

In the end, the OP is stating all other opinions on solutions are invalid and the only solution is to do what they want or do what they want.
It may be bias, but it is still perfectly logical. Also you state that there are many other options...would you mind elaborating on some?
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