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Well I was going to avoid the topic, since the OP regurgitates the same thing every couple months, but I figured why not..
Quote:
Originally Posted by mackinac81
I'm exactly the same way. I was born in 1981 into a Republican, Reagan loving household, grew up on Rush Limbaugh and learned that Reagan was one of the best presidents ever. And while I still like the man, I've seriously questioned his choices--especially since the downturn. Basically, he was a fundamentally decent man who had great intentions, but didn't understand the consequences of some of his actions.
While you question his choices, I question whether or not he was really behind the 'choices' made by him.. I disagree about not understanding consequences, he did after all reverse the tax cuts he campaigned on when it was discovered they were not working. Although, the cuts were concurrent with inflation-curbing interest rate spikes enacted by the fed, so I wonder if the it undermined the results...
Then again, a lot of people blame Reagan's policies for the current recession. Do you think those same people also credit him with the boom in the 90s? Probably not. Therefore the argument is illogical.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mackinac81
About # 1: If Reagan was a factor, then it was small. The USSR was imploding anyway. But the things he said (like the Berlin speech) were great. I like a lot of his speeches and quotes.
That was not the point of the speech. Gorbachev enacted Perestroika and Glasnost, which increased personal freedoms within the USSR. Both reforms enacted by Gorbachev were probably inspired by Reagan. Reagan was issuing a challenge to the USSR to continue pushing reforms, increase freedoms, and join the 'free' world again by tearing down the wall.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlow
Illegally selling arms to Iran to fund the Contras? The same Iran that's killing its people in the streets today.
You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.
In the late 70s, the US supported the Shah, when we offered him asylum, the Iranian people went ballistic. Hostages were taken, and the event pretty much marks the beginning of the Iranian Revolution where the Shah's government was overthrown, replaced with the Ayatollah. As such, Iran went from being a US ally, to being an enemy.
Someone by the name of Saddam Hussein was at war with Iran. How does the cliche go? The enemy of my enemy is my friend. As such we supported Saddam and Iraq in their war against Iran. Part of the motivation for providing that assistance was providing weapons to forces that were against the Ayatollah in Iran.
A plan was devised to pass weapons through Israel, to a moderate and politically influential group in Iran that opposed the Ayatollah. At the same time, the idea was to sell the weapons, so that the mediator would negotiate for the release of American hostages held by Hezbollah. The problem was, the so called 'moderate' group was infiltrated by members loyal to the Ayatollah....
Proceeds from these weapons sales went to the Contras, who were anti-Communist forces in Central America. I should not need to go in depth, as I believe everyone here knows the reasoning behind not wanting a second country sympathetic to the Soviets in such proximity to the US.
And just so you know, Reagan and Clinton both were massive arms dealers, the latter being responsible for supplying African warlords, more so than Middle Eastern and South American nations that Reagan kept well armed.
First of all, you are presuming to know what his motive is and asserting your presumption as a fact.
IIRC it may have been in Marlin Fitzwater's or Donald Regan's book. Regardless of where it was the facts are that at the time Newt Gingrich and others on the far right (which Reagan definitely was not) were ripping him at home for being too cozy with Gorby and others. BTW, this is very easy to check as there's this internet thing that your can probably find newspaper articles and op-ed pieces from that time.
As someone else wrote had a D done the things Reagan did (and always advocated doing) by talking to "evil empires" Hannity and others would have been shouting "appeaser".
As someone else posted, there's no doubt that the Reagans had no problems with gays. They had lots of gay friends from the Hollywood days. Of course the political side of the Reagan operation had to keep that quiet to keep the Dobsons and Fallwells from going nuts (more nuts than they already were).
Well I was going to avoid the topic, since the OP regurgitates the same thing every couple months
FTW are you talking about? If I've ever brought up the Reagan "myth" in the past it's been to refute the kind of carp that the righties constantly echo that Hannity has piped into their empty heads.
FTW are you talking about? If I've ever brought up the Reagan "myth" in the past it's been to refute the kind of carp that the righties constantly echo that Hannity has piped into their empty heads.
golfgod
I have seen the topic title a few times in the past... I believe you were behind at least one of them. I did not mean that in a negative way, I enjoy debating about Reagan's presidency.
FTW are you talking about? If I've ever brought up the Reagan "myth" in the past it's been to refute the kind of carp that the righties constantly echo that Hannity has piped into their empty heads.
golfgod
See, it's this kind of attitude that makes it difficult to have a friendly, respectful debate. I don't watch or listen to Hannity. Being from SoCal, I have studied Reagan, been to the Reagan library and read several books about him. To lump all "righties" into this category is really unfair.
Amen....Reagan started this fall by deregulating everything and letting GREED take it's inevitable course.....broke the Traffic Controllers Union...declared Ketchup a vegetable for poor school children...he'll go DOWN in history alright; literally!
The Air Traffic Controllers needed to have their butts kicked.
Because you are liberal you would not understand the laws, if anyone source like the Controllers shut down needed items within our country like they were the President has the right to order them back to work so they do not stop the country from moving.
Of course Obama would never force idiots like them who make massive amounts of money to get back to work when they want to shut down movement in he US.
They are vital to our country and the President has the right to force them back on the job or dump their sorry butts.
You don't like him because he busted a union who needed some butt kicking anyway.
Like it or not he is one of the greatest ever and if you read here the liberals talk about him all the time because they know he was so great!
That's about how I feel. I think he did some good and some bad. But he was fundamentally a decent, well intentioned person, even if I don't put him in the "Top 10 best presidents" category.
Yes, it is weird. When people talk about Reagan the way my pastor talks about Jesus, it's weird. He was human. He made mistakes. What's ironic is that he really believed that the greatness of America lied in it's people. Yet his strongest heroes are frantically searching for a second Reagan to ride in on his white horse and save the country. I have a feeling Reagan would be appalled at the hero worship. But that's just me.
I agree with pretty much everything you said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie117
Then again, a lot of people blame Reagan's policies for the current recession. Do you think those same people also credit him with the boom in the 90s? Probably not. Therefore the argument is illogical.
I don't blame him for the current recession. What I do blame him for is the current state of the American peoples ...mindset for lack of a better term. We won the cold war in part by out spending the USSR. We spent them into the ground and in turn he and his administration turned around and encouraged American's to spend (all for the good of everyone). Spend, spend, spend, charge now, pay later, whatever you have to do just Spend! Save tomorrow, spend today baby.
It is during this time that people stopped trying to save as they had in the past and CC lines boomed and soared and government debt took off. That is the part of the current economic climate I blame Reagan for - And maybe a bit of his total bombardment on regulations.
Liberals believe Obama is a mythical super hero but when someone post anything negative they keep posting give him more time.
If he is a super hero then why is it taking him so long to fix all those thing he promised us instead of making matter much worse?
Ronald Reagan is an American icon, he deserves even more credit then he gets I think.
Barrack Obama will never be a Ronald Reagan in his lifetime. He does not have to moral values or wisdom to even get close to Reagan. Reagan loved his country and Obama seems to hate it.
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