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Old 07-09-2009, 11:33 AM
 
Location: Midessa, Texas Home Yangzhou, Jiangsu temporarily
1,505 posts, read 3,847,505 times
Reputation: 931

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MotleyCrew View Post
Did you also know that some cancers actually cause bloating and sudden weight gain? Great math, but you don't read much do you?
Sure the body can retain fluids. But that is like saying that lifting a bowling ball causes weight gain. Its true, in a sense, but that's not really what people mean by weight gain.

You figure that I don't read much since I use math and apply well known scientific laws to my arguments. Interesting. I suppose you were trying to insult me in order to somehow strengthen your own argument. You fail, for a few reasons.

1. Even if I didn't read much that would not change the facts that I presented in my argument. You are apparently unable or unwilling to challenge them.

2. I obviously do read much since this entire debate is taking place on a message board.

3. I could read more than anyone else in the world and still be unaware of particular facts, reading in and of itself does not insure exposure to all information.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MotleyCrew View Post
One more thing.... crash diets, or starvation diets even with working out can cause one to go into survival mode and keep on the extra weight and even add weight at first.
I don't know about you, but I am ALWAYS in survival mode. The only other alternative is dying mode.
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Old 07-09-2009, 12:00 PM
 
6,660 posts, read 6,838,749 times
Reputation: 10049
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucidus View Post
So, are you suggesting that once weight is gained there is no way to lose it? Seriously?
No, not at all. I am saying that it can make it exponentially more difficult to lose that weight once you've gained it. No matter how hard you work, you will see decreased results until you are able to overcome the body's anti-starvation mechanism.

Quote:
A calorie is defined as a specific amount of energy. Its does not matter what the source or use of that energy is, ok? It doesn't change the definition. Fat contains a known amount of calories. Still with me? The laws of thermodynamics state that energy cannot be destroyed or created, so to store a pound of fat, 3500 or more calories must be eaten. Still there? Hormones and perceptions of starvation do not change this fact.
See, this is where the test tube comes in. Scientists burn something and define the energy output. In the body, there are other factors in play. If you eat carbohydrates, for instance, you stimulate insulin response. Insulin prompts your body to store calories in the form of fat. Protein has a gluconeogenesis rate of approximately 58%, if I remember correctly, and so it can also stimulate insulin response, but to a lesser degree than straight carbohydrate. Ingested fat, while highest in calories, has the least degree of stimulation of insulin.

For people who have insulin resistance, this effect is compounded, making weight gain easier, and weight loss more difficult.

Quote:
Over eaters? Yes, there is no doubt about that. Lazy? Maybe. A simplistic view would be that people are powerless to control their weight.
Even though I have been arguing that simple thermodynamics are far too simplistic to be the rule in biology, I do not believe that most people are completely powerless over their weight. What I do believe is that the body's biological state will make weight loss exceedingly difficult in many people. My own experience bears this out, and I am not alone. I gained 40 pounds in six months, despite no change in activity or diet. Later, I found out that this was caused by my PCOS, which went undiagnosed for another 9 years (I ended up self-diagnosing, and getting confirmation testing from my doctor).

Simple thermodynamics do not apply in a biological organism. Especially a female one - we are built to hold onto fat to protect our young.
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Old 07-09-2009, 12:29 PM
 
Location: Midessa, Texas Home Yangzhou, Jiangsu temporarily
1,505 posts, read 3,847,505 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emeraldmaiden View Post
No, not at all. I am saying that it can make it exponentially more difficult to lose that weight once you've gained it. No matter how hard you work, you will see decreased results until you are able to overcome the body's anti-starvation mechanism.
Finally common ground. The law of diminishing returns is well understood.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emeraldmaiden View Post
See, this is where the test tube comes in. Scientists burn something and define the energy output. In the body, there are other factors in play. If you eat carbohydrates, for instance, you stimulate insulin response. Insulin prompts your body to store calories in the form of fat. Protein has a gluconeogenesis rate of approximately 58%, if I remember correctly, and so it can also stimulate insulin response, but to a lesser degree than straight carbohydrate. Ingested fat, while highest in calories, has the least degree of stimulation of insulin.

For people who have insulin resistance, this effect is compounded, making weight gain easier, and weight loss more difficult.
I am not going to check everything you say here, it all sounds right but irrelevant. My point has been that in order to store fat, one must eat more calories than are contained in the fat. Nothing you have said here challenges that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emeraldmaiden View Post
Even though I have been arguing that simple thermodynamics are far too simplistic to be the rule in biology, I do not believe that most people are completely powerless over their weight. What I do believe is that the body's biological state will make weight loss exceedingly difficult in many people. My own experience bears this out, and I am not alone. I gained 40 pounds in six months, despite no change in activity or diet. Later, I found out that this was caused by my PCOS, which went undiagnosed for another 9 years (I ended up self-diagnosing, and getting confirmation testing from my doctor).

Simple thermodynamics do not apply in a biological organism. Especially a female one - we are built to hold onto fat to protect our young.
There is really nothing else for me say here.

(Simple) Thermodynamics applies to EVERYTHING IN THE UNIVERSE. Even biological organisms. Even female biological organisms. Even female biological organism with PCOS. Everything. I don't how to make that any more clear.
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Old 07-09-2009, 07:29 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 25 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,016 posts, read 102,674,652 times
Reputation: 33083
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucidus View Post
No its not. A pound of fat contains 3500 calories, this is not a generalized assumption but a well documented fact.
Calories in a pound of fat = 3500 calories (http://www.burnthefat.com/calories-in-a-pound-of-fat.html - broken link)

"3500 calories to lose a pound has always been the rule of thumb. However, this 3500 calories figure goes back to research which assumed that all the weight lost would be adipose tissue (which would be ideal, of course).
But as we all know (unfortunately), lean body mass is lost along with body fat, which would indicate that the 3500 calorie figure could be an oversimplification."
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Old 07-09-2009, 07:31 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 25 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,016 posts, read 102,674,652 times
Reputation: 33083
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucidus View Post
(Simple) Thermodynamics applies to EVERYTHING IN THE UNIVERSE. Even biological organisms. Even female biological organisms. Even female biological organism with PCOS. Everything. I don't how to make that any more clear.
What makes you such an authority on this, anyway?

If weight control were sooo easy as you say, no one would have any problem maintiaing their ideal weight.
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Old 07-10-2009, 06:21 AM
 
Location: Marion, IA
2,796 posts, read 5,491,538 times
Reputation: 1579
Insulin resistance, cancer, menopause. You are all listing exceptions to the rule of weight gain. Most people under 50 don't have these problems. They have bad habbits like eating a quart of ice cream on the couch at 9pm while watching Grey's Anatomy. Stop lying to yourself and get some discipline.
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Old 07-10-2009, 06:52 AM
 
Location: Las Vegas, NV
3,849 posts, read 3,273,569 times
Reputation: 1694
Quote:
Originally Posted by zz4guy View Post
Insulin resistance, cancer, menopause. You are all listing exceptions to the rule of weight gain. Most people under 50 don't have these problems. They have bad habbits like eating a quart of ice cream on the couch at 9pm while watching Grey's Anatomy. Stop lying to yourself and get some discipline.
And you're assuming those of us describing our weight loss problems are all 'under 50'. I happen to be much closer to 60 than 50. And I'm 15 years past menopause. I have never in my life eaten a quart of ice cream in one sitting - in fact, I still have nearly a quart of the last gallon I bought more than a month ago. My point being, I have lived long enough and lived through enough times trying to lose extra poundage, that I know what the causes of my weight gain are as well as knowing the problems associated with trying to lose it. My weight gain started nearly 40 years ago, during my first pregnancy, continued with each successive pregnancy and I've been trying to lose it ever since.
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Old 07-10-2009, 06:57 AM
 
Location: Midessa, Texas Home Yangzhou, Jiangsu temporarily
1,505 posts, read 3,847,505 times
Reputation: 931
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Calories in a pound of fat = 3500 calories (http://www.burnthefat.com/calories-in-a-pound-of-fat.html - broken link)

"3500 calories to lose a pound has always been the rule of thumb. However, this 3500 calories figure goes back to research which assumed that all the weight lost would be adipose tissue (which would be ideal, of course).
But as we all know (unfortunately), lean body mass is lost along with body fat, which would indicate that the 3500 calorie figure could be an oversimplification."
This research does not contradict what I have saying. In fact if you look a little farther down you will see this:

Quote:
If you have very high body fat to begin with, the typical rule of thumb on calorie deficits may underestimate the deficit required to lose a pound. It may also be too conservative, and you can probably use a more aggressive deficit safely without as much worry about muscle loss or metabolic slowdown.
Go back and re-read my posts. I have been saying that to lose a pound of fat you need a calorie deficit of at least 3500 calories or in some case I would say that more than 3500 are required to gain a pound of fat. No where in this article is there any suggestion that a pound of fat can be gained with less than a 3500 calorie surplus.
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Old 07-10-2009, 07:12 AM
 
Location: Florida
19,837 posts, read 19,932,533 times
Reputation: 23280
My husband has every condition commonly associated with 'old age'.....diabetes, high BP,elevated cholesterol...plus COPD & Emphesema so any activity is very limited.
His weight has been creeping up the last two years so needed to diet.
Lo fat, lo sugar, lo salt, lo carb.
He still uses a treadmill twice a day for as long as he can.(which isn't long)
He's lost 8 pounds this month on a 1200 calorie diet
If one really wants to no matter how difficult, unless there is a genuine serious medical condition that interferes, they can.
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Old 07-10-2009, 07:14 AM
 
Location: Midessa, Texas Home Yangzhou, Jiangsu temporarily
1,505 posts, read 3,847,505 times
Reputation: 931
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
What makes you such an authority on this, anyway?

If weight control were sooo easy as you say, no one would have any problem maintiaing their ideal weight.
What makes me an authority on thermodynamics? These laws are well established and anyone who has taken any physics course should know them.

I didn't realize that I was saying that weight control was sooo easy. Please allow me to clarify, it is not easy, specially in a society like ours where energy dense food is cheap and abundant and sedentary life styles are common.
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