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Seems like "everyone" is coming out daily with prognostications, predications, and general gloom and doom scenarios, but hardly anyone is offering any solutions, albeit miniscule. Part of the problem, as I see it, is who really gives a tinker's damn? Who cares as long as their party is in the catbird seat? How can one individual do anything but sit back and watch the demise of the American Dream (that's something that's been popular round these parts lately), watch the demise of the best democracy going in the world (may not be the best, but it's way ahead of whoever is next). Take a gander here, get a beer, or a strong drink, or anything else you want, and watch it for a minute.
I'm amazed at the number of people whose sole concern is either national debt or personal income tax. As if either one is either very bad right now or very indicative of the state of the nation. Both measures have been way, way higher in the past. Both have moved up and down due to conditions. Both will continue to move up and down.
And these tax protesters and teabaggers are finally out protesting, now that it directly affects their own pocketbood. Well, I don't recognize this greedy, selfish form of patriotism. They couldn't give a damn when Bush turned us into a nation of torturers. They said squat when Bush grabbed an American citizen off the streets in Chicago and held him in solitary for 3 years without charges or lawyers. They defended Bush when he was violating laws like FISA.
So forgive me if I call BS on your newfound concern for our decline - only because you think your taxes are going to go up. I only feel disgust.
Seems like "everyone" is coming out daily with prognostications, predications, and general gloom and doom scenarios, but hardly anyone is offering any solutions, albeit miniscule. Part of the problem, as I see it, is who really gives a tinker's damn? Who cares as long as their party is in the catbird seat? How can one individual do anything but sit back and watch the demise of the American Dream (that's something that's been popular round these parts lately), watch the demise of the best democracy going in the world (may not be the best, but it's way ahead of whoever is next). Take a gander here, get a beer, or a strong drink, or anything else you want, and watch it for a minute.
I watched that thing for about 30 seconds and couldn't take it anymore. The fact that we have spent well over $2 trillion in just about 6 months of Obama makes me wonder if he can make it to $4 trillion by year's end.
BTW, wasn't that attempt to take the topic from spending and taxation by Idahogie a very progressive Dem looking thing?
BTW, wasn't that attempt to take the topic from spending and taxation by Idahogie a very progressive Dem looking thing?
I didn't change subjects. I pointed out how the concern expressed by the OP was selfish, and not a problem, especially compared to how the last administration behaved.
If you can't address my points, fine. Just admit it. So far, neither you nor the OP has done it - other than to throw insults.
I didn't change subjects. I pointed out how the concern expressed by the OP was selfish, and not a problem, especially compared to how the last administration behaved.
If you can't address my points, fine. Just admit it. So far, neither you nor the OP has done it - other than to throw insults.
You can't see that there has been over $2 trillion spent already this year which is nearly twice as much as has been taken in by taxes being paid? Go to that place and look for a while to see if money is coming in faster than it is going out and then tell me that this is no problem.
Do you actually fail to see what happens to nations that print money as fast as they can, non-stop? I guess you don't see that as a problem either. I was in college in the 1950s when I saw my first picture of a Chinese citizen wheeling a wheelbarrow to market to buy a loaf of bread. Of course, that can't happen her because Obama is the head man. Right?
You can't see that there has been over $2 trillion spent already this year which is nearly twice as much as has been taken in by taxes being paid? Go to that place and look for a while to see if money is coming in faster than it is going out and then tell me that this is no problem.
It is no problem. We have had higher deficits and debts in the past. Not a problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by roysoldboy
Do you actually fail to see what happens to nations that print money as fast as they can, non-stop? I guess you don't see that as a problem either. I was in college in the 1950s when I saw my first picture of a Chinese citizen wheeling a wheelbarrow to market to buy a loaf of bread. Of course, that can't happen her because Obama is the head man. Right?
It could happen. But it's not happening now. Our debt is lower now than it was many times in the past. Getting all hyper about it just makes people like the teabaggers look like fools. Join them if you want. It's still not a problem.
Further, conservatives had no problem when Reagan or Bush II did incredible feats of deficit spending - to accomplish nothing but fill coffins and spend on defense. Now that President Obama is spending on infrastructure and preventing massive economic failures - now it's a problem?
It is no problem. We have had higher deficits and debts in the past. Not a problem.
It could happen. But it's not happening now. Our debt is lower now than it was many times in the past. Getting all hyper about it just makes people like the teabaggers look like fools. Join them if you want. It's still not a problem.
Further, conservatives had no problem when Reagan or Bush II did incredible feats of deficit spending - to accomplish nothing but fill coffins and spend on defense. Now that President Obama is spending on infrastructure and preventing massive economic failures - now it's a problem?
Sorry, but I call BS on that.
I stopped using your abbreviation of a term that would bet one banned for writing out in two words long ago. Instead I use Pelosi since she is so full of it and spreads it around as if what she said meant anything. Try it, sometime, you might like it.
If you all could stop paying attention for a moment to idahogie's usual diversions, insults, Bush-bashing,Moderator cut: do not call other members "liar" you might want to note that the Interest On The National Debt this so-called clock/calculator provides, is nowhere near accurate. It states it as approx. $142 billion. The actual figure is closer to $430 billion.
and click on Table 455, "Federal Outlays by Detailed Function". Scroll down to "Interest on Treasury Debt Securities", which is the total interest paid this year on the actual amount owed by the U.S. Govt to all creditors.
I have a hunch the MOCC designers ignored the debt that is money "borrowed" from the Social Security Trust Fund and other such trust funds. That comprises the bulk of the National Debt.
We presently spend as much on this interest, as we do on any program in the Fed Govt. (National Defense). And we spend MORE on interest, than on the entire Social Security program, Medicare/Medicaid, or any othher program.
Barack Obama plans to triple the National Debt within 10 years. This will also triple the interest paid on the debt. Other programs are planned to increase, but not by nearly as much.
Interest on the National Debt will shortly become the largest expense of the U.S. Government... and we get absolutely nothing from it, unlike other programs that at least return some results (national security, some hospitalization and retirement money etc., however inefficiently). And there is no sign that it will EVER diminish in our country's future.
Moderator cut: personal attack
Last edited by katzenfreund; 07-18-2009 at 10:26 PM..
I apologize. I hereby state for the record, that someone who says
Quote:
We have had higher deficits and debts in the past.
and
Quote:
Our debt is lower now than it was many times in the past.
is NOT a liar. He is merely hopelessly ignorant in the face of clear and overwhelming evidence contained in easily found Federal data. His flagrantly false statements are the result of hysteria or extreme delusion, NOT deliberate lying.
All better now?
Back to the subject:
Tread carefully when using official government references like the Statistical Abstract, especially when addressing the Federal budget.
Normal accounting practices endorse putting all income amounts in one table, and all debit amounts in another, ansd comparing the bottom lines to see if you have a deficit or surplus. But in the example I cited, the table is called "Federal Outlays"... but the writers try to water down the huge outlays for interest on the National Debt, by including income amounts from other programs and blending them to form something called "Net Interest". Try that in a high school or college economics exam, and you'll get an F.
Read these tables carefully, and make sure you know what you're looking at. The people writing them, did not do so for the purpose of making the truth clear.
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