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Old 08-02-2009, 07:37 PM
 
4,657 posts, read 8,689,577 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jojajn View Post
No it just means they are selfish. They do not want to pay more taxes even though this is the best way to help the disadvantaged in this country.
Every statistic and poll after poll shows the exact opposite; conservative Christians are much more generous in charity and volunteerism then secular liberals.

We do not believe that the government is the solution, we believe that people serving people with the love of Christ is the answer. What specifically leads you to believe that the government "is the best way to help the disadvantaged in this country", as you put it? Welfare has done the exact opposite; it's created multiple generations of hopelessness and interdependence, with no self esteem or future.
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Old 08-02-2009, 08:37 PM
 
Location: Reading, PA
4,011 posts, read 4,413,271 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonrise View Post
Every statistic and poll after poll shows the exact opposite; conservative Christians are much more generous in charity and volunteerism then secular liberals.

We do not believe that the government is the solution, we believe that people serving people with the love of Christ is the answer. What specifically leads you to believe that the government "is the best way to help the disadvantaged in this country", as you put it? Welfare has done the exact opposite; it's created multiple generations of hopelessness and interdependence, with no self esteem or future.
Unless the Christian doctors and nurses of this country are going to start manning enough free clinics -- and the rest of you paying for the expenses -- that ain't gonna cut it for the health care issue.

(Before you go getting all proud about that more generous in charity thing, control the statistics for the tax deductible donations made solely to support the donor's church and spread the church's teaching. Once you eliminate those donations and we have a true measure of charitable donations, we can talk. Until then, I refuse to accept those statistics.)
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Old 08-03-2009, 12:10 PM
 
12,436 posts, read 11,912,540 times
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Originally Posted by Sagran View Post
Unless the Christian doctors and nurses of this country are going to start manning enough free clinics -- and the rest of you paying for the expenses -- that ain't gonna cut it for the health care issue.

(Before you go getting all proud about that more generous in charity thing, control the statistics for the tax deductible donations made solely to support the donor's church and spread the church's teaching. Once you eliminate those donations and we have a true measure of charitable donations, we can talk. Until then, I refuse to accept those statistics.)

Agreed, and lets not forget. And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." (Matthew 19:23,24)
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Old 08-03-2009, 12:17 PM
 
4,657 posts, read 8,689,577 times
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Originally Posted by hotair2 View Post
Agreed, and lets not forget. And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." (Matthew 19:23,24)
Ahh, thank you. I was waiting for this verse; it's really the only time the left uses Biblical scripture. Now, let's see what the next two verses have to say, shall we?


25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?" 26 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

The Bible isn't a spiritual buffet, where you pick and choose what verses you like, (i.e. fit your political agenda) and ignore those that you don't.
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Old 08-03-2009, 12:53 PM
 
12,436 posts, read 11,912,540 times
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Originally Posted by Sonrise View Post
Ahh, thank you. I was waiting for this verse; it's really the only time the left uses Biblical scripture. Now, let's see what the next two verses have to say, shall we?


25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?" 26 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

The Bible isn't a spiritual buffet, where you pick and choose what verses you like, (i.e. fit your political agenda) and ignore those that you don't.
Maybe one of those prosperity preachers told you what this means so you misinterpreted 25. There is no denying what 23 and 24 mean. You believe that even a rich man can get into heaven based on 25. That is not what it means.

Most of Jesus' followers were Jewish. The old testament taught that the wealthy were wealthy because God had blessed them. The disciples believed that Jesus was saying that even those who are blessed by God would not be able to get into heaven so if the blessed ones could not get in then there is no hope for the poor who were not blessed. This was the response to that. You see these prophesy preachers are teaching the same thing that the pharisees were preaching which God rebelled against. If you follow their line of thought, you are going against the teachings of Jesus...you are then no better than a pharisee.
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Old 08-03-2009, 01:08 PM
 
895 posts, read 2,360,960 times
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Originally Posted by Sonrise View Post
The op stated that Jesus was a pacifist, I used scripture to refute that. The op also claimed that Jesus told all rich people to sell everything and give it to the poor, when in fact he only said that to one person in particular to make a point. But as you stated the last sentence is the most important. Glad we can agree on that.
So if jesus wasn't a pacifist it's really sad so many people worship someone who did not preach peace. Christians have gone much lower for me now, if their own savior didn't talk about forgiveness and peace. You said you refuted it, and if it's true what you say, any respect I had for "peaceful" christians has vanished.

Christians need to stop telling muslims, atheists etc that jesus was peaceful and about forgiveness when you are saying the opposite. Jesus was not a pacificist as you say, he is no different than Mohhamed. Thanks for clearing up the crusades and the currect US interventionist policies. Jesus totally would support it according to you, since he wasn't about peace.
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Old 08-03-2009, 01:09 PM
 
895 posts, read 2,360,960 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotair2 View Post
Agreed, and lets not forget. And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." (Matthew 19:23,24)
It doesnt matter what the next verse says sunrise. Either you take this as the word of god or it means nothing to you. Jesus clearly says it is easier for a camel to enter heaven than a rich man. There is no sugar coating it or interpreting it any other way. These are the words of Jesus Christ. Or do these words mean nothing to you?
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Old 08-03-2009, 01:47 PM
 
Location: St. Joseph Area
6,233 posts, read 9,458,356 times
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Quote:
Originally posted by jojajn
No it just means they are selfish. They do not want to pay more taxes even though this is the best way to help the disadvantaged in this country.
Not all. Many christians I know are very giving and generous--including to the poor. yet they're against the government getting involved. I disagree with them on that, but I couldn't call them selfish. Some of them put me to shame in the compassion department.
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Old 08-03-2009, 01:56 PM
 
Location: St. Joseph Area
6,233 posts, read 9,458,356 times
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sonrise

First of all Jesus was not a pacifist; the idea of a wimpy meek and mild Jesus has been perpetuated for quite some time; falsely. He went nuts when people started having what was essentially a flea market at the courtyard of the temple.

John 2:13-22
13The Passover of the Jews was near, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14In the temple he found people selling cattle, sheep, and doves, and the money changers seated at their tables. 15Making a whip of cords, he drove all of them out of the temple, both the sheep and the cattle. He also poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. 16He told those who were selling the doves, “Take these things out of here! Stop making my Father’s house a marketplace!”

His disciples who lived with and spent nearly 24/7 with him for 3 1/2 years carried swords with them, as evidenced by Peter cutting off the ear of one of the soldiers that came to arrest him at the Garden of Gethsemane. The beauty of Christ is, that even though he knew they were coming to kill him, he healed the mans ear and rebuked Peter.

John 18:10-11

Then Simon Peter, who had a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's servant, cutting off his right ear. (The servant's name was Malchus.
Jesus commanded Peter, "Put your sword away! Shall I not drink the cup the Father has given me?"
Pacifism is not necessarily wimpy. It often takes more strength to not respond than to lash out. And while Jesus was tough at times, he was also meek.

About the passage of Jesus in the Temple. It doesn't say that he actually whipped people in the temple. He might have, but I have a hard time believing it. righteous anger is different than committing violence against a person. It also doesn't justify us simply getting violent with someone because they offend us. Yes, Jesus will one day judge the world. That's when he'll lash out at the evil and injustice in the world. But I'll leave that to Jesus. I am not Jesus.

I agree with you on the rich man. He had no problem with rich people, as long as they were rich toward God.
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Old 08-03-2009, 04:09 PM
 
4,657 posts, read 8,689,577 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NihonKitty View Post
So if jesus wasn't a pacifist it's really sad so many people worship someone who did not preach peace. Christians have gone much lower for me now, if their own savior didn't talk about forgiveness and peace. You said you refuted it, and if it's true what you say, any respect I had for "peaceful" Christians has vanished.

Christians need to stop telling muslims, atheists etc that jesus was peaceful and about forgiveness when you are saying the opposite. Jesus was not a pacificist as you say, he is no different than Mohhamed. Thanks for clearing up the crusades and the currect US interventionist policies. Jesus totally would support it according to you, since he wasn't about peace.
So, you concede that you were wrong, and then turn to attacking Christians and Christianity? Your making the false assumption that there's a direct correlation between pacifism and peace. Jesus is the Prince of Peace, and said that we could follow all of his commandments, but if we didn't have love, we had nothing, but he wasn't a pacifist; likewise, I will never start a fight or make trouble, but if someone were to break into my home, you bet I'm gonna defend my wife and baby girl by all means necessary. A true pacifist would let an intruder do whatever they like to a man's wife and child.
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