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Old 08-05-2009, 08:42 AM
 
572 posts, read 1,865,207 times
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Originally Posted by Nero777 View Post
So you have no problem hurting your own people? It is amazing how we as Americans have become so greedy that we sell out our own people for the sake of a quick buck.
Nero777, who are his/her people? The capitalists' people are his associates in the Co-op (fellow shareholders) and his offspring who shall inherit his share in the company. Everybody else is expendable.

And plus, Americans aren't the only humans on earth. I believe in globalization because all humans can benefit from being more interconnected economically. In the near future, if globalization takes its' normal course as it is now, you will see Americans immigrating to other countries for jobs, instead of masses of people immigrating here.

Due to America's technological advances, we have enjoyed the privilege of not having to leave our home country to find reasonable work. However, other countries are implementing our technology and producing like us, which is how it should be. Everybody should get a piece of the pie, not just Americans.
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Old 08-05-2009, 08:59 AM
 
352 posts, read 551,227 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdiggs1 View Post
Nero777, who are his/her people? The capitalists' people are his associates in the Co-op (fellow shareholders) and his offspring who shall inherit his share in the company. Everybody else is expendable.

And plus, Americans aren't the only humans on earth. I believe in globalization because all humans can benefit from being more interconnected economically. In the near future, if globalization takes its' normal course as it is now, you will see Americans immigrating to other countries for jobs, instead of masses of people immigrating here.

Due to America's technological advances, we have enjoyed the privilege of not having to leave our home country to find reasonable work. However, other countries are implementing our technology and producing like us, which is how it should be. Everybody should get a piece of the pie, not just Americans.
We maybe working towards globalization, but it will be decades before we have properly trained the majority of our citizens to handle the kind of work that comes from a globally connected economic system. In the meantime, you have husbands, wives, fathers, and mothers who rely on these jobs to support their families and the families who rely heavily on this support. Just throwing people out on their butts without any assurances of ever finding a new job after so many have given years of devoted time and service to the company is not something I would call ethical business practices.

If we want to get really technical, this transition to globalization maybe beneficial to the CEOs and management, but its the workers who get the noose, regardless of what country they are in. In China, commoners have to illegally immigrate to cities where they are hired to make high valued goods such as clothes, cars, electronics etc etc and they only make 25 cents for nearly 12 hours of work. Globalization is good for big business, but it is choking the life of everyone else. If it continues as it is now, then millions of Americans will be left without jobs, which means they can't purchase quality healthcare, they will probably have to live in government funded housing, and their overall quality of life will greatly diminsh below standards set by human rights groups (it is just a matter of time). If any of these things happen in America, then chances are that it will also happen everywhere else in the world.
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Old 08-05-2009, 10:10 AM
 
572 posts, read 1,865,207 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nero777 View Post
We maybe working towards globalization, but it will be decades before we have properly trained the majority of our citizens to handle the kind of work that comes from a globally connected economic system. In the meantime, you have husbands, wives, fathers, and mothers who rely on these jobs to support their families and the families who rely heavily on this support. Just throwing people out on their butts without any assurances of ever finding a new job after so many have given years of devoted time and service to the company is not something I would call ethical business practices.

If we want to get really technical, this transition to globalization maybe beneficial to the CEOs and management, but its the workers who get the noose, regardless of what country they are in. In China, commoners have to illegally immigrate to cities where they are hired to make high valued goods such as clothes, cars, electronics etc etc and they only make 25 cents for nearly 12 hours of work. Globalization is good for big business, but it is choking the life of everyone else. If it continues as it is now, then millions of Americans will be left without jobs, which means they can't purchase quality healthcare, they will probably have to live in government funded housing, and their overall quality of life will greatly diminsh below standards set by human rights groups (it is just a matter of time). If any of these things happen in America, then chances are that it will also happen everywhere else in the world.
It won't take decades to train these American kids. The only training the Americans will have to do is learn another language. Workers in India & China aren't doing any different type of work than we do over here; they are using the technologies that originated over here, Americans are already trained in those. The only way we may need retraining is if new technology originates in a country other than ours. And even then it won't take decades to adopt that new technology.

It's true that workers in other countries make low wages, but if you ask them they will tell you it's better than the wages they were making before. There last wages were zero, or they were self-employed on the family farm. These workers actually benefit from industrialization. Alot of them are happy to get these jobs. It's about what your used to.

Hypothetically, If there was a country where engineers were making $725/hour, and engineers in your country are making $77/hour, those engineers in the other country would think engineers over here got it bad, whereas if your making $77/hour you as an American would think you're doing pretty good. An engineer making $725/hour may have comforts that you cannot have making only $77/hour. They may think it's bad that you can't afford to take 26 vacations a year like they can, compared to your one.

Trust me when I say workers in other countries benefit, just not in the way that you think they should benefit.
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Old 08-05-2009, 10:34 AM
 
6,205 posts, read 7,428,115 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdiggs1 View Post
I hear the phrase "American jobs" alot when people are talking about globalization. The phrase implies that we as an individual American have a legal right to the job that we are at.

You hear many Americans saying "these are our jobs that are being shipped overseas", As if we own them. This is a capitalist system that we are under; there is no ours. The only way that one should feel obligated to a job is if it were under a communist system. If Raul & Fidel Castro decide to buy Cuba's supply of textiles (clothing) from Malaysia instead of having the Cuban people make them, then the Cuban textile workers could say "the Malaysians are taking our jobs." Why? Because the Communist economic system is a collective; the people own the means of production, i.e. the Cuban people own the company, the machines, the land that they facility is on; they are obligated to the profits. The wealth of the Cuban nation belongs to all the people of Cuba.

The wealth of the United States of America belongs only to the most innovative and best capitalists, i.e. individuals. So when IBM ships more jobs to India and Americans lose the positions they once held, just remember that the Americans are working for a group of capitalists who have a right to move their operations anywhere they want to;. IBM & other capitalists have no legal or moral obligation to only provide jobs & wealth to the people of the same nationality as them.

The American who feels that his/her job belongs to him/her has only one of two options:

1) Move to India, Mexico, China, Brazil, or wherever their job goes.

2) Start a communist revolution in the United States so you as a citizen will be obligated to the job.

If you're not willing to do any of those things, then I suggest one needs to stop complaining and accept the system that one is under.
1) Well, there is more to life then "legal" and "rights". Life has a dynamic of its own. The idea that only the brightests in society are entitled to jobs with livable wages is absurd. Its not a matter of "rights" but of common sense. If only the creme de la creme in society can have a reasonable paid job, who will buy GM and Ford automobiles? How will the US economy regain momentum? With $100M CEOs? How will our democracy survive?
2) Life isn't black and white, i.e. capitalism vs. communism. There are endless shades in between. Indeed Reagan and Bush dogmatic policies turned America back to 1900 when people like JP MOrgan ruled. But that is a fierce, extreme form of capitalism, inexistent in other democratic countries. It is so because it cannot coexist with a real democracy. Currently we may be going back to what America was after WW2. Yes, we may go back to the communist days of Eisenhower, Kennedy and... Nixon. BTW, why there was not so much globalization under Eisenhower?
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Old 08-05-2009, 11:03 AM
 
352 posts, read 551,227 times
Reputation: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdiggs1 View Post
It won't take decades to train these American kids. The only training the Americans will have to do is learn another language. Workers in India & China aren't doing any different type of work than we do over here; they are using the technologies that originated over here, Americans are already trained in those. The only way we may need retraining is if new technology originates in a country other than ours. And even then it won't take decades to adopt that new technology.
Do you know how many Americans today are in opposition to learning another language? Many Americans today have preconceived notions that the world should bow down to our demands and that includes that they should speak english (especially among Republicans). Furthermore, the education system today is quite poor in comparison to other countries. There is a massive teacher shortage nationwide; in recent years, schools have been losing funding left and right and can barely afford up to date textbooks let alone hire out new teachers and gather enough supplies to teach all the students another language. In my county alone, nearly 1200 teachers and staff members have been fired while over $100 million dollars has been cut from the education system's budget; and this all has occurred in the last three months. And what about the current dropout rate in schools nationwide? I agree that the education system needs to be revamped, but to meet the demands of a globalized economy is an unrealistic expectation as of right now and will take quite sometime to address.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mdiggs1 View Post
It's true that workers in other countries make low wages, but if you ask them they will tell you it's better than the wages they were making before. There last wages were zero, or they were self-employed on the family farm. These workers actually benefit from industrialization. Alot of them are happy to get these jobs. It's about what your used to.

Hypothetically, If there was a country where engineers were making $725/hour, and engineers in your country are making $77/hour, those engineers in the other country would think engineers over here got it bad, whereas if your making $77/hour you as an American would think you're doing pretty good. An engineer making $725/hour may have comforts that you cannot have making only $77/hour. They may think it's bad that you can't afford to take 26 vacations a year like they can, compared to your one.

Trust me when I say workers in other countries benefit, just not in the way that you think they should benefit.
You care to ask some of these people about how happy they are with their current situation in the workforce? In China, many people received wages that are better than what they had on the farm, but the money they receive is still barely enough to cover living expenses in the city, let alone that which is needed to care for their family members in the city and back at home. Any human rights group that encountered this would call this clearly a violation of human decency. In Shanghai alone, women are considered lucky if they have a job; however, if they don't meet corporate expectations, they are simply fired and put back out onto the street. If fact, the majority of fired women in Shanghai end up going into prostitution simply because they can't find work elsewhere. Yes, they are making money, but at the expense of their self-respect.
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Old 08-05-2009, 03:01 PM
 
572 posts, read 1,865,207 times
Reputation: 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nero777 View Post
Do you know how many Americans today are in opposition to learning another language? Many Americans today have preconceived notions that the world should bow down to our demands and that includes that they should speak english (especially among Republicans). Furthermore, the education system today is quite poor in comparison to other countries. There is a massive teacher shortage nationwide; in recent years, schools have been losing funding left and right and can barely afford up to date textbooks let alone hire out new teachers and gather enough supplies to teach all the students another language. In my county alone, nearly 1200 teachers and staff members have been fired while over $100 million dollars has been cut from the education system's budget; and this all has occurred in the last three months. And what about the current dropout rate in schools nationwide? I agree that the education system needs to be revamped, but to meet the demands of a globalized economy is an unrealistic expectation as of right now and will take quite sometime to address.




You care to ask some of these people about how happy they are with their current situation in the workforce? In China, many people received wages that are better than what they had on the farm, but the money they receive is still barely enough to cover living expenses in the city, let alone that which is needed to care for their family members in the city and back at home. Any human rights group that encountered this would call this clearly a violation of human decency. In Shanghai alone, women are considered lucky if they have a job; however, if they don't meet corporate expectations, they are simply fired and put back out onto the street. If fact, the majority of fired women in Shanghai end up going into prostitution simply because they can't find work elsewhere. Yes, they are making money, but at the expense of their self-respect.
Alot of Americans are opposed to learning a new language. But just like the Mexicans, Chinese, and Indians (of Asia) they'll have an incentive to learn if they want to make that money. I'm sure alot of other people would like it if they didn't have to learn English, but that is how the game is played right now.

I don't believe in this "education in America is poor" mess. It's all about incentives. I came from what people would call a poor school; my school had the same problems you are talking about: poor funding, old & torn books, teachers that weren't accredited to teach the class subject, teachers that just let the students pass, didn't challenge them enough. I had a chemistry teacher that would give us answers during a test just so we could pass it. She would give out 30% of the answers and let us work out the rest. This didn't stop me. It's all about what the student wants out of life and where they want to go. And in America you can fly high if you want to. There is nothing holding these American students back but themselves.

In low income countries, poverty is holding those students back. Alot of kids in other countries don't have access to public schools, Pell Grants, free or reduced lunches, or libraries. Americans have the resources but honestly a lot of us take what we got for granted, because in America you can do a half decent job in school and still get a good paying occupation when you finish. Where is the incentive?

If a significant amount of students drop out of school, then that means alot of the adolescents over here don't have a strong incentive of staying in school. The decision to drop out of school to me is a personal choice, and not a fault of the state.

You are right about those human rights abuses, but China only has one way to go and that is up. People will only take so much until they revolt against the system. Remember, only 100 years ago America was going through the same problems with dangerous work environments, pollution, low wages and high costs of living. But when the people start bucking, the powers that be will buckle. Trust me when I say that in 2109 China & India will resemble the U.S. economically, unless there's a terrible war or aliens come and take over.
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Old 08-05-2009, 03:07 PM
 
572 posts, read 1,865,207 times
Reputation: 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by oberon_1 View Post
1) Well, there is more to life then "legal" and "rights". Life has a dynamic of its own. The idea that only the brightests in society are entitled to jobs with livable wages is absurd. Its not a matter of "rights" but of common sense. If only the creme de la creme in society can have a reasonable paid job, who will buy GM and Ford automobiles? How will the US economy regain momentum? With $100M CEOs? How will our democracy survive?
2) Life isn't black and white, i.e. capitalism vs. communism. There are endless shades in between. Indeed Reagan and Bush dogmatic policies turned America back to 1900 when people like JP MOrgan ruled. But that is a fierce, extreme form of capitalism, inexistent in other democratic countries. It is so because it cannot coexist with a real democracy. Currently we may be going back to what America was after WW2. Yes, we may go back to the communist days of Eisenhower, Kennedy and... Nixon. BTW, why there was not so much globalization under Eisenhower?
True indeed.
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Old 08-06-2009, 08:20 AM
 
352 posts, read 551,227 times
Reputation: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdiggs1 View Post
Alot of Americans are opposed to learning a new language. But just like the Mexicans, Chinese, and Indians (of Asia) they'll have an incentive to learn if they want to make that money. I'm sure alot of other people would like it if they didn't have to learn English, but that is how the game is played right now.

I don't believe in this "education in America is poor" mess. It's all about incentives. I came from what people would call a poor school; my school had the same problems you are talking about: poor funding, old & torn books, teachers that weren't accredited to teach the class subject, teachers that just let the students pass, didn't challenge them enough. I had a chemistry teacher that would give us answers during a test just so we could pass it. She would give out 30% of the answers and let us work out the rest. This didn't stop me. It's all about what the student wants out of life and where they want to go. And in America you can fly high if you want to. There is nothing holding these American students back but themselves.

In low income countries, poverty is holding those students back. Alot of kids in other countries don't have access to public schools, Pell Grants, free or reduced lunches, or libraries. Americans have the resources but honestly a lot of us take what we got for granted, because in America you can do a half decent job in school and still get a good paying occupation when you finish. Where is the incentive?

If a significant amount of students drop out of school, then that means alot of the adolescents over here don't have a strong incentive of staying in school. The decision to drop out of school to me is a personal choice, and not a fault of the state.
I agree to an extent to what you are saying; even in my old schools, many of the kids preferred to party and indulge in numerous vices instead of taking the time to study for the test or prepare themselves for their SATs. To an extent, a child's success depends on how willing they are to commit to their studies; however, I am also inclined to blame the State because when an economic crisis like the one we are in occurs or they simply need to balance the overall budget, it is the schools and the social programs that they offer that tend to be the first ones to get the blade. Textbooks, teachers, after school programs, sports, and the arts lose their funding left and right to the point that there is really nothing appealing left for these children to dabble in. Even in the universities this is a problem, the state funded ones are at the mercy of the government and are bound to follow through on any guidelines or regulations set by the state, the only ones not affected by this are the private schools, which are today far too expensive for most citizens to pay for, even more so now since the government and the banks and corporations aren't lending credit as they once did. Furthermore, government regulation, which is often swayed by public opinion, often dictates what will be taught in school; in my sophomore year in college, I learned more about the atrocities committed by Europe and even our own government than I had ever heard of in my entire lifetime. Up till this time, I thought Colombus was some adventurous, daring individual who fought against the social norm to acheive his dream; in college, I learned that he actually left Europe to gather wealth in India and that he actually crucified millions of indians in the carribean during his voyages. What does this tell me? Not only do schools lack the ability to train their students to become contributing members of society, but that the education we are given is clearly biased and is designed to promote a sense of national pride instead of giving the child a chance to develop his or her own opinions on these matters. I think we both can we agree on just how screwed up our education system really is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdiggs1 View Post
You are right about those human rights abuses, but China only has one way to go and that is up. People will only take so much until they revolt against the system. Remember, only 100 years ago America was going through the same problems with dangerous work environments, pollution, low wages and high costs of living. But when the people start bucking, the powers that be will buckle. Trust me when I say that in 2109 China & India will resemble the U.S. economically, unless there's a terrible war or aliens come and take over.
Actually, the revolt you speak of may not be too far off. Over the past decade, riots in China have increased from a few here and there to nearly several thousand conflicts on a daily basis. There is a widespread public opinion within China that detests how the free capital market that China has adopted has made several million people the wealthiest in the world, but left nearly 1.4 billion people stuck in low paying jobs or working for pocket change. Eventually, the state is going to suffer another tianmen square incident, only this time the government may not be able to stop it; if this happens, the globalized economy will take a drastic downward turn that will cripple every other economy in the world that relies on China.
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Old 08-21-2009, 12:29 PM
 
77 posts, read 275,706 times
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Just got off the phone with Hewlett Packard support for a printer issue we are having. HOURS of crappy customer service and language barriers. HP customer service said they were in the Philippines!!! My sister also lost her job that went over to INDIA.
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Old 08-21-2009, 12:31 PM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,052 posts, read 84,183,047 times
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Originally Posted by Keehome View Post
Just got off the phone with Hewlett Packard support for a printer issue we are having. HOURS of crappy customer service and language barriers. HP customer service said they were in the Philippines!!! My sister also lost her job that went over to INDIA.
Vietnam, Malaysia and the Phillipines are now cheaper to use then India.
These newcomers are undercutting India to get jobs.
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