"Manufactured Protesters Are Killing Democracy" (drug, lobbyists, lobby)

[Atilla]

Originally Posted by Sagran

Besides the fact that under the insurance-run system, your coverage is determined by your boss the insurance company he chose, there are some issues with what you said.

According to you, you've paid approximately $100,000 above the coverage you recieved. (I'm adding in routine medical care that your insurance company sure paid for you over the decades.) Even so, you still had reach in your pocket and pony up $10,000 for your surgery.

What do you think happened to that other $100,000? It paid for the medical bill of others who held policies with that insurance company.....and the company's profit and sales organization and CEO's outlandish salary.

Who else contributed to your medical insurance besides you and your boss? Everyone who pays taxes and doesn't have insurance because both you and your boss got tax right-offs for those insurance payments. Likely both of you took them right off your gross income, lower your taxable income. So did the people without insurance who pay out of pocket at a higher price because your insurance company negotiated lower payments to your doctors. And so did the people who bought the products/services your employer makes his money selling because he had to increase his prices to buy your your health insurance.

You know, I bet those people who pay taxes and for their medical care themselves are sick of carrying you, your boss and the insurance companies.

How did you come to think this way? If you think this way I would be surprised if you have ever even paid any taxes. I would suspect you may have something like an earned income credit. Meaning, you made some half assed effort to educate yourself or to create a private business but not enough to earn enough to even pay taxes. So now it is my fault that I take a job and as a consequence of that job my employer matches my insurance payments and I get a tax deduction for having paid insurance that would not pay for even one earned income credit.
My God, how do people come to rationalize this way?
This whole thing is nothing more than an effort at redistribution of income.

[Greatday]

Originally Posted by Atilla

This whole thing is nothing more than an effort at redistribution of income.

Yep - you got it!

[Foreverking]

Originally Posted by Atilla

I don't know everything but I know basic things pretty well. No one makes too much for VA care. If you make that much you can pony up the same as me and pay for insurance your entire life as I have. I figure 40+ years at avg of $400 month that is $192,000 I have paid in or my employer has paid as part of my benefits. That will pay for a lot of health care. I never used a dime of it until I recently had open heart surgery. Tha t cost about $80,000 plus my deductables, maybe $10,000. So I have already contributed to a lot of other peoples health care and or the profitability of the insurance companies. At least under this system I could get open heart surgery. Under the proposed system I would have some liberal toads decide for me.

I pay insurance too. If you make over 30K say goodbye to free medical care at the VA.

I could get open heart surgery in Canada if I were a citizen, I could get open heart surgery immediately while I was in the Navy. I had surgery while I was in the navy in fact. It was immediately.

Under the current proposed plan, you can keep your own insurance, why then are you so worried what others like me might elect to do. You just keep paying Blue cross, and Ill do my thing. If anything, your rates will drop.

[Atilla]

Originally Posted by Foreverking

I pay insurance too. If you make over 30K say goodbye to free medical care at the VA.


I could get open heart surgery in Canada if I were a citizen, I could get open heart surgery immediately while I was in the Navy. I had surgery while I was in the navy in fact. It was immediately.

Under the current proposed plan, you can keep your own insurance, why then are you so worried what others like me might elect to do. You just keep paying Blue cross, and Ill do my thing. If anything, your rates will drop.

I have to admit you are hard to understand. First your going broke because you ave no insurance and now you have insurance. Which is it?

You think these little fascist college boy dumps are going to leave things the same even if they doctor it up enough to attract the gullable to pass it.

Maybe if I treat myself better these next 20 years than I did th efirst part I won't have to worry about it. If my time comes up again in 15 20 years I wouldn't blame them if they said I wasn't worth the time. At least I got under the wire the first go around. I wouldn't wish that for my son and his children though.

People like me escaped Europe many years ago because of tyrants. There is now no where to run. We will stand and fight. To quote a phrase, "Bring it On"

[Sagran]

Originally Posted by Atilla

How did you come to think this way? If you think this way I would be surprised if you have ever even paid any taxes. I would suspect you may have something like an earned income credit. Meaning, you made some half assed effort to educate yourself or to create a private business but not enough to earn enough to even pay taxes. So now it is my fault that I take a job and as a consequence of that job my employer matches my insurance payments and I get a tax deduction for having paid insurance that would not pay for even one earned income credit.
My God, how do people come to rationalize this way?
This whole thing is nothing more than an effort at redistribution of income.

I assure you I am correct about the income reduction for insurance. If you are paying pre-tax dollars for your share, the amount put towards your insurance does not show up in the gross wages box of your W-2. It does, however show up in the Medicare wages and Social Security wages boxes. That means it is money you earned on which you and your employer paid payroll taxes but is not part of your taxable income. Reducing the gross income amount on your 1040 automatically reduces your taxable income on which your taxes are calculated. You earned money on which you don't pay taxes. Those who pay for an individual policy, whose employers (for some reason) don't offer the pretax option or who have no insurance are paying higher rates to compensate for your untaxed income.

Your employer, on the other hand, writes off employee benefits as an expense of doing business. Right off his gross income. However that cost is an overhead which is part the formula he uses for determining what he charges his clients/customers.

I think it's pretty easy to understand how I came to think this way if you understand the tax code. The problem is that in the US, employer-subsidized insurance-run is so much a part of the culture that no one stops to question why and if it's a good idea.

I don't think it is.

[compJockey]

Protecting the "protestors" organized by republican lobbyists is very much the same as protecting lies about the health care plan. Incredibly dumb.

These people don't realize they are arguing for insurance company's wealth, and against american citizen's benefit.

[Atilla]

Right now if I needed emergency surgery, I would die or go bankrupt. I probably would have to choose to die rather than destroy my family and kids college funds. When I was in the Navy, I had regular check ups, my family had check ups as well as full dental. I haven't been back to the Dentist in 10 years. Just hoping that my new dental care, brushing 3 times a day, will work out for the entire family

I just wanted to insure what I read was what I read. I wonder how many things you choose to afford that keeps you from affording insurance.

I have two brothers that were vets that had open heart surgery on the government. Another had serious cancer surgery on the VA. I suspect either of the three could buy and sell both of us regards net worth. Maybe you are not creative enough in your approach, you really don't understand, or there is something else I am missing. Did you receive an honorable discharge?
When and if I ever get to quit work, retire, which probably will not happen the way the world is going under demwit control, I will likely turn my health care over to the VA. They are well regarded by my brothers.

[Atilla]

Originally Posted by Sagran

I assure you I am correct about the income reduction for insurance. If you are paying pre-tax dollars for your share, the amount put towards your insurance does not show up in the gross wages box of your W-2. It does, however show up in the Medicare wages and Social Security wages boxes. That means it is money you earned on which you and your employer paid payroll taxes but is not part of your taxable income. Reducing the gross income amount on your 1040 automatically reduces your taxable income on which your taxes are calculated. You earned money on which you don't pay taxes. Those who pay for an individual policy, whose employers (for some reason) don't offer the pretax option or who have no insurance are paying higher rates to compensate for your untaxed income.

Your employer, on the other hand, writes off employee benefits as an expense of doing business. Right off his gross income. However that cost is an overhead which is part the formula he uses for determining what he charges his clients/customers.

I think it's pretty easy to understand how I came to think this way if you understand the tax code. The problem is that in the US, employer-subsidized insurance-run is so much a part of the culture that no one stops to question why and if it's a good idea.

I don't think it is.

Sagran, I never implied or suggested you were not correct in your assessment. I think it is another case where idealism, the thought, rather than the practical implication and true result is the only real consideration. If I pay $300 a month for my insurance, a total of $3,600 a year and my tax bracket is 20%, I get to take off $720 from my overall tax liability. The girl across the street can't keep her dress down and she has three kids she can't support and gets $1,800 per child.
Again all the fuss is nothing more than a veiled attempt at redistribution of income but not very veiled. It is the consequences that concern me. The consequences of abortion multiplied and euthanasia accepted.

[Sagran]

Originally Posted by Atilla

Sagran, I never implied or suggested you were not correct in your assessment. I think it is another case where idealism, the thought, rather than the practical implication and true result is the only real consideration. If I pay $300 a month for my insurance, a total of $3,600 a year and my tax bracket is 20%, I get to take off $720 from my overall tax liability. The girl across the street can't keep her dress down and she has three kids she can't support and gets $1,800 per child.
Again all the fuss is nothing more than a veiled attempt at redistribution of income but not very veiled. It is the consequences that concern me. The consequences of abortion multiplied and euthanasia accepted.

Ah, another false assumption pops up -- everyone who doesn't have insurance is on welfare. All people with taxable income and who pay taxes have employer supplied insurance. That's flat wrong. They are the ones making up for that $720 you aren't paying, not to mention the part of that $10,000 deductible you got for an itemized deduction (where, incidentally, the insurance premiums for those not on group plans goes, giving those people a rather limited tax reduction).

Oh, and that $10,000 you paid out of pocket on top of all those insurance premiums that you and your employer paid..... You're underinsured.

[Foreverking]

Originally Posted by Atilla

I have to admit you are hard to understand. First your going broke because you ave no insurance and now you have insurance. Which is it?

You think these little fascist college boy dumps are going to leave things the same even if they doctor it up enough to attract the gullable to pass it.

Maybe if I treat myself better these next 20 years than I did th efirst part I won't have to worry about it. If my time comes up again in 15 20 years I wouldn't blame them if they said I wasn't worth the time. At least I got under the wire the first go around. I wouldn't wish that for my son and his children though.

People like me escaped Europe many years ago because of tyrants. There is now no where to run. We will stand and fight. To quote a phrase, "Bring it On"

where did you read I had no insurance?