***Health Care Thread (part two)*** (patriot, stimulus, job, foreign)

[Aylalou]

Originally Posted by dcsldcd

How is it that truth looks like lies to left wingers and lies look like truth. What a world of confusion to have to live in. By the way people are dying because of liberals, abortion, euthanisia, and the war mongering president hussein obama.

All your examples describe exactly the last administration - only a name change.

[rkb0305]

Originally Posted by Sunny-Days90

Wonder who will be the first person to die under Obamas rath?

Dems cannot handle the truth and continue to support him.

Obama lied and people will die from his decisions, afterall his death toll for our troops he was bringing home continues to climb and the loons are no where to be found.

the question is how many people are going to die needlessly before something gets passes? It happens every day. I guess that's ok with some people. I don't know how some sleep at night while thinking it is ok to let someone die because they don't have enough money.

[DC at the Ridge]

People die every day. Some of those people who die today could have been saved if we had a better health system in place. Many of the people who've died in the past died because of a lack of healthcare. People in the future will die because the healthcare plan of the future will also be inadequate.

The argument that people will die is a strawman. People will die.

The argument really is only about is the proposed healthcare plan better than what we currently have?
People who are satisfied with the current healthcare system obviously will be reluctant to change. But it is a fact that during the election, healthcare was cited as a problem by the majority of Americans, so it seems reasonable to say that the majority of Americans are not satisfied with the current healthcare system. So, the argument rests solely on the question, will the proposed changes make the healthcare system better? Changes aren't set in stone. We can make changes now, and make changes ten years from now. Is it better to act or not to act?

There isn't any need to attack the President or to scream socialism. Socialized medicine is already with us and it functions well enough to satisfy millions of Americans now. And privatized medicine is with us and functions well enough to satisfy millions of Americans. Unfortunately, it fails to satisfy millions of other Americans. We have problems with our current healthcare system that we don't only desire to address, but we are required to address because healthcare is simply consuming too much of our national resources to be viable over the long-run. Instead of calling the President a liar, instead of focusing our energy in partisan blame games, it would serve us all better to focus our attention on figuring out what we want our healthcare system to do, and then figuring out the most economical way to get it to achieve our goals.

[LNTT_Vacationer]

ObamaCare will stop needless deaths. If only it were passed months ago Ted K would still be with us.

[groar]

Originally Posted by johnnyholiday

Liberals keep saying this, but I am not entirely sure this is right. In many European countries they pay taxes that are almost double what we pay, this pays for all of the "free" stuff democrats keep talking about. None of it is "free", the money comes from somewhere, such as the almost 20% VAT that many of these countries have, the equivalent of $7 a gallon gasoline many of these countries have, etc. They pay for, just not straight out of their cheque book like we do here.

it is correct. i don't know about the one and a half, but our GOVERNMENT alone pays more per capita than the governments of most countries with universal health care.

when you factor in private spending, we're off the charts.

lots of information here: http://assets.opencrs.com/rpts/RL34175_20070917.pdf

no one is pretending that taxes don't count as part of health care expenditures.

[dcsldcd]

Originally Posted by Aylalou

All your examples describe exactly the last administration - only a name change.

Ahh another one that avoids the issue and hides behind a Bush just like hussein obama.

[johnnyholiday]

Liberals are. Just a quick flip through the pages on these forums and you will see how many liberals are talking about the "FREE!!!!!!!!!!! Health Care" they have in Europe. Ask any young high school student out of high school about their political beliefs, most of them have been brainwashed by democrat teachers who have convinced them that Europe is some utopian society. Liberals never tell you the ugly part of their "truth". I don't want to be taxed 50% of my income, pay $7 a gallon for gasoline, or pay a 20% sales tax, just so I can get "free" healthcare.
Initially, like they always do, the democrats will throw the bill at the wealthy, call them selfish for wanting to keep the money they earn. Then when they realise that the national health care can't sustain itself just from the money gotten from the wealthy, the libs will raise taxes on the upper middle, and middle class people.

[Ludachris]

Originally Posted by johnnyholiday

Liberals are. Just a quick flip through the pages on these forums and you will see how many liberals are talking about the "FREE!!!!!!!!!!! Health Care" they have in Europe. Ask any young high school student out of high school about their political beliefs, most of them have been brainwashed by democrat teachers who have convinced them that Europe is some utopian society. Liberals never tell you the ugly part of their "truth". I don't want to be taxed 50% of my income, pay $7 a gallon for gasoline, or pay a 20% sales tax, just so I can get "free" healthcare.
Initially, like they always do, the democrats will throw the bill at the wealthy, call them selfish for wanting to keep the money they earn. Then when they realise that the national health care can't sustain itself just from the money gotten from the wealthy, the libs will raise taxes on the upper middle, and middle class people.

Some realize that "free" health care comes with too many downsides. But we still want something done to bring down the costs and make it more attainable for more people so that bankruptcy isn't one injury or illness away for our families (even for those with decent insurance).

Isn't that what you want? Or are you of the mindset that since you're content with your situation, you don't care if changes are made? The same attitude you are accusing the liberals of having - not caring about how it might affect others so long as they get their way. The way I see it, those who don't want change are simply not affected yet. Eventually, more and more people will lose their coverage or have to pay more for it - and then they'll also want to see something done about it.

I don't want to be taxed 50% of my income, pay $7 a gallon for gasoline, or pay 20% sales tax either. But instead, I was paying almost the equivalent in health insurance costs and income taxes when I was self employed (back when I could afford to be self employed) - and my preexisting conditions weren't even covered. But yeah, let's worry more about protecting the rich from being taxed more, as if they need our help with the power and influence they have through their money. Let's not worry about the self employed entrepreneurs and other little guys who are pushing for ways to lower the cost of health care and not be at the mercy of greedy insurance companies.

Say what you want about Medicaid and how inefficient it is - you don't see them trying to get out of covering their customers due to loop hole technicalities like the greedy insurance companies always do. Ironically enough, it was a conservative friend of mine who first said this to me.

[Casper in Dallas]

Originally Posted by LNTT_Vacationer

Nice ring to it. . . .

We are going to save money by spending money.

We are going to solve our fiscal problems with a program that will increase the national debt by $1 trillion.

We are going to guarantee you can keep your current insurance with a bill that encourages your employer to stop offering it.

We are going to improve health care for seniors by cutting $500 billion from Medicare.

We aren't going to insure illegal aliens. . . . but we won't have any verification to see that they can't apply and get benefits.

More half truths and outright lies, typical righwing propaganda, feeding your fellow sheep a little more fear?
Casper

[Fred Derf]

Originally Posted by johnnyholiday

Liberals keep saying this, but I am not entirely sure this is right.

It is right. If you look at the actual numbers, 16% of U.S. GDP goes towards health care that covers only seniors, veterans and those on social assistance. Canada spends about 10% of their GDP on healthcare and they manage to cover everyone they have. Now, you can say that America is bigger and they have way more people but America's GDP is larger so any set percentage of GDP already adjusts for population differences. Canada may still have higher income and sales taxes but that money isn't being spent on healthcare. The money Canada spends on healthcare is far more efficiently spent than the healthcare money in the United States. For one thing, Canada spends only a fraction of the administration costs so far less money is tied up in paperwork and other non-quality of care related costs.